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Old 07-27-2010, 12:58 PM   #11
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Happy to see that you are not deleting this.

The issue as I see it is that there are two different projects going on:

(1) canning of non-acid fruits and vegetables, and

(2) the making of jelly and jam, where the product is acidulated according to instructions.

I had wished to discuss the making of jellies and jams and make the point that some of us do not have the time or equipment to do a boiling water bath. There are some of us (adults) who have the capacity and ability to work fast and do things right. The worst that can happen is that a jar does not seal. I do not wait till the next day to see whether sealing took place or not. If a jar does not seal, the contents can be recooked or placed in the freezer right away and used as jam or sauce later.

Please do not confuse the canning of vegetables with the making of jams and jellies. The worst thing that can happen with james and jellies is not deadly.

I do not recommend any sort of canning/freezing/jamming to those who don't love doing it or who may have some disability that makes it difficult for them to do things correctly and safely.

Thank you.
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Old 07-27-2010, 01:27 PM   #12
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As I see it, there is also two different projects going on, but slightly different in the subject matter:

1. Canning, which is to pasteurize (killing the source of germs) in a vacuum environment so the food can be stored for an extended period of time at room temperature.

2. Not Canning, therefore not pasteurizing to prevent the growth of germs.


My grandmother and earlier never knew things about bacterias, yeasts, and molds that we now know about and continue to research on, so it is no surprise that their preserving methods were not of a standard recommended today. To ignore technology and advances in medical research is a shame, but so be it. Everyone is entitled to live their lives the way they want... as long as it does not effect others.

And though it is true that most bacterias, molds and yeasts found in Jams and similar high-acid foods won't kill a person with a good immune system, not everyone is so lucky and my concern is always toward them in a public forum such as this.
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Old 07-27-2010, 02:41 PM   #13
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It is right that you should mention how some people without a "good immune system", i.e., normal health, would maybe be laid low by a few bacteria, molds & yeasts. They would have to be all-round careful with their general contact with their environment, not just limited to not-processed jams and jellies. I would add that people with weak immune systems should not be consuming anythng with a lot of sugar, as it has been shown that sugar depresses immune systems also. My thinking is that if you are tough enough to handle sugar, you can handle a few "germs".

I do give some jellies and jams away and will tell the recipients that they are not processed.

In our household, we will eat food that we dropped on the floor, consume raw vegetables right in the garden c/w invisible thingies, and so on and so forth. I do not take my umbrella with me on a sunny day.

By all means, continue to recommend boiling water baths for jams and jellies.
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Old 07-28-2010, 10:06 PM   #14
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What "ignorant suggestions" are you referring to?
1. That you can maintain a sterile environment in your kitchen. That is that all of your tools that come into contact with the food are 100% germ free. Even hospitals can't maintain a sterile environment.

2. That you can guarantee that your jams are acidic enough to kill mold and not require sterilization. (That requires a pH meter. One batch of strawberries picked today will have a different pH than the batch picked tomorrow as they ripen. The processing is what allows some level of tolerance for the pH level.)

3. That the sealing of the jar is enough to preserve it and actually creates a vacuum. (If you believe, that, then why not just use wax canning method?)

4. That botulism (which is invisible, tasteless, and odorless) isn't a threat in jams and that the only risk is possible bacteria that would just "make you sick if you have a healthy immune system". Ummm... bacteria, which can also be undetectable, produces botulism toxin spores.

5. That any recipe that calls for non-processing "canning" has been tested as safe... because none have been. By tested, I mean under controlled conditions. This type of canning FAILS when tested.

6.. The simple fact that you suggest that not processing/open kettle canning is... um... safe????
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Old 07-28-2010, 10:48 PM   #15
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A well-put-together response.

Do you mind if I reply to your 4 points, or will you dismiss them out of hand? I hope not.

1. I don't require a 100% germ-free environment. It is the scientists who have been saying (I didn't make this up) that we get accustomed to the germs in our own homes and over time we develop a resistance to them. I am careful, though, at jamming time, to make things as clean as I know how.

2. I follow the instructions that come with the pectin regarding the adding of lemon juice.

3. Maybe I don't understand what a vacuum is, but I think I do. When you hear that "thuck!" sound, a vacuum has been created. Then when it's time to consume the jam, it takes some effort to get the lid off. That means the seal was adequate.

4. I don't think that botulism is a problem. If it is, please let me know where I can find this info.

The potential problems with the "working fast with hot fruit then turning the jar upside down" method are (1) seal failure during storage which wasn't apparent earlier;and (2) subsequent development of mold. Obviously, if the jar loosened during storage, or if I see mold (never have) I throw the jam out. I do store my jams & jellies in a cold storage room after the cold weather comes, and in a refrigerator prior to that.

5. All of the cases of spoiled (botulism) canning I am aware of happened in store-bought, commercially canned goods. Not that it doesn't happen in home canning, only that I've never heard of it happening.

6. I am not guaranteeing safety at all, only saying that for me, the old-fashioned method has been adequate. I do think, though, that anything can happen to anybody at any time and we should not always be too sure of ourselves in any matter.

Anybody wants to buy me a canner & rack, I promise to use it.
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Old 07-28-2010, 10:55 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Daizymae View Post
6. I am not guaranteeing safety at all, only saying that for me, the old-fashioned method has been adequate.
That is kind of where my rub is since you been smuggley stating your values on a public forum as being acceptable for all. That is why your statements are being challenged. They are NOT acceptable for public safety discussion.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:38 AM   #17
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People, you've all made your points. You obviously don't agree, each has a point of view and you don't agree. It's time to stop picking at each other and be respectful. Sniping back and fore does no good and it doesn't prove your point it just makes people take sides. That is not doing anyone any good. Please when canning or with any food prep err on the side of safty. Be careful your life is precious. Ignore me and continue to snipe all it will do is cause resentment it will not prove your point only cause ill will.
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:23 AM   #18
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I don't want to perpetuate an argument, but I do want to offer some information on botulism since Daizymae asked for it.

Here is a link I hope many folks read. And also, it merely takes Googling "botulism in home canning" to bring up a lot of very good important information.

I urge anyone who is home canning to be well informed and to have an open mind. Please don't read with the intent of finding something to "prove your point" whatever that point may be. Read all that you can find and process it for yourself.

Here on the site we encourage discussion about everything. As kadesma wisely said, it seems that we have all said our piece and any more may have us sliding into anger and nastiness.

Please do your reading and research and be safe.
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Old 08-06-2010, 02:33 AM   #19
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Canning Jams and Jellies Without A Water Bath...

For years I made jams and jellies with Serto and the manufacturers instuctions up until a few years ago was to bring the sugar and fruit to a boil, add a bit of lemon juice and a bit of butter or margarine to eliminate some of the foam, add the Serto, boil for one minute, skim the foam off of the top, pour into sterilized jars, seal and turn upside down for five minutes. Now, the Serto, all brands of pectin additives and all recipes, except for freezer jams and jellies say that you have to use a water bath at all times when canning jams and jellies. Although I have followed the water bath instuctions for the past few years, I really don't know why because for the 45 years prior I never did and no one ever got sick from any of the thousands of jars of jams and jellies that I have made, fed to my family and given away to everyone that I know. After reading some of your posts, I am thinking about returning to my old turn the jar upside down method, because it always worked for me and there was 'NEVER' a problem and until today, everyone still brings my empy jars back with the hope of getting more of my yummy stuff... I am about to make jelly and jam again as I do every year when my fruit trees showers us with fruit and I have been dreading it, for with the amount of jars I make, I really hate messing with the water canner or pressure canner...so if I decide to just turn the jars upside down this year I will let those of you who are interested know if anyone gets sick... Karen Sue
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Old 08-06-2010, 03:01 AM   #20
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Question

PS...Just so you know RE: My previous post on Jams and Jellies, under my name I am noted as being an assistant chef, but how that got there I have no idea, for I am a retired cosmotologist who has always loved to cook...not an assistant chef. Karen Sue
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