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Old 04-05-2020, 10:24 AM   #1
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What's the Difference?

Searching around the internet for things to do I wandered onto he King Arthur Flour website and was scrolling through the 'Breads' section (who knew how many there would be?!) and came across a recipe for Italian Bread 101. There is a photo of a beautiful braided and seeded loaf. I copied it to my laptop.

Searching further, I came across a recipe for Scali Bread There is a photo of a beautiful braided and seeded loaf. I copied it to my laptop.

Then I took a look at the two recipes and they look almost identical except for the addition of powdered milk and olive oil in the scali bread recipe and some minor differences in ingredient amounts.

I'm not an accomplished bread baker and don't know the effects certain ingredients have on a recipe. My question is as stated in the title. Whats the difference between these two recipes?

Will they taste different? Will one be more moist? will one be more tender? Which one do I make?

Here is a comparison of the ingredients lists.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Scali:Italian Bread Comparison.pdf (12.7 KB, 48 views)
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Old 04-05-2020, 10:48 AM   #2
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Not sure, but I'd make one of each and decide which I like better. Any way you look at it, it's a win-win. Can't go wrong with any homemade bread.
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Old 04-05-2020, 11:31 AM   #3
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Breads that contain only flour, water, yeast and salt are called lean breads - they have no fat and they turn out more crisp and chewy.

Breads with added dairy, eggs and/or fat are called enriched breads. They are generally more tender, with a tighter crumb, and they last a few days longer than bread from lean dough.
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Old 04-05-2020, 12:43 PM   #4
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According to Wikipedia:

Scali Bread is an Italian style of bread made predominantly in the Boston, Massachusetts area. It is a braided loaf that is covered in sesame seeds. It was originally made by the Scali family of Boston, and is now a regional specialty.

So, seeing you ARE in Massachusetts, you should use the Scali recipe.
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Old 04-05-2020, 03:27 PM   #5
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So yeast is another thing they are selling out of in the stores! I guess there are a lot of new bakers out there, due to them selling out of bread, thus the shortage of flours.

Andy, That Scali bread might be a better choice for you - since it has the oil in it, it will keep longer. I used to make those "lean breads" frequently, when making dinners for more people. The crust is better, but even the next day, the quality begins to degrade, unless you wrap it, which softens the crust. The bread can still be used, and I used to toast what I had left, and maybe make bruschettas, which is a good way to use what is left of lean bread. Lean bread doesn't freeze as well, either - only a couple of weeks, in my experience, before the crust starts getting leathery. The breads with some oil in them last longer, and freeze longer, as well. I usually put ¼ c oil to each 6-7 c flour in bread. Some recipes have more, of course, but this is typical.
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Old 04-05-2020, 08:32 PM   #6
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If you have warehouse membership like BJs or Costco try looking for yeast there. I found some at BJs this morning.
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Originally Posted by pepperhead212 View Post
So yeast is another thing they are selling out of in the stores! I guess there are a lot of new bakers out there, due to them selling out of bread, thus the shortage of flours.

Andy, That Scali bread might be a better choice for you - since it has the oil in it, it will keep longer. I used to make those "lean breads" frequently, when making dinners for more people. The crust is better, but even the next day, the quality begins to degrade, unless you wrap it, which softens the crust. The bread can still be used, and I used to toast what I had left, and maybe make bruschettas, which is a good way to use what is left of lean bread. Lean bread doesn't freeze as well, either - only a couple of weeks, in my experience, before the crust starts getting leathery. The breads with some oil in them last longer, and freeze longer, as well. I usually put ¼ c oil to each 6-7 c flour in bread. Some recipes have more, of course, but this is typical.
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Old 04-06-2020, 08:34 AM   #7
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I was goon to comment on the difference that adding the powdered milk would make. However, all has been covered, and expertly I might add. So, I'll bring up another question about bread.
i
I have seen numerous recipes that call for adding powered milk to the dough mix. Some even cautioned against using liquid milk. And yet, I have a bread recipe handed down from My MIL's mother to my MIL,y DW, and then to me that starts with scalding milk as the liquid component. The recipe makes 5 loaves of very good bread, that after baking, can be frozen quite successfully. And eaten fresh, it's just really nice bread, with a softer crust, and really nice crumb for everyday bread, i.w. sandwiches, toast, bread & butter, etc.

I did the math, and adjusted the recipe to make 1 loaf for my bread machine. That loaf had a very crusty, crunchy crust, and a soft, though substantial crumb, that held up well against buttering with less than soft butter. It doesn't ear easily, and -kneaded bread baked in the oven.be great as an accompaniment to soups, and stews.

There was a substantial difference between the bread that came out of the machine, and the hand. ll I can think of is that the measurements for the single loaf are approximates, as ,many of them turn into odd fractions that would be very difficult to measure. Here is the different recipes, all based on the 5 loaf original recipe,

This starts wither the 6 loaf recipe.:

Ingredients:
For 5 loaves
1 quart scalded milk
3 tbs. Yeast
2 tbs. Salt
7 tbs. cooking oil
1 cup honey or sugar
15 cups all purpose white flour

Warm liquid to tepid. You should be able to touch it without burning yourself. Add the sugar and yeast. Stir with a wire whisk to dissolve. Let sit until the yeast forms a layer of bubbles on top. Add the oil, then the salt and remaining ingredients. Stir until mixed with a heavy wooden spoon. The dough should be sticky. Pour another cup of flour over the dough and knead by hand until the flour is completely blended into the dough. If the dough still sticks heavily to your hands, add another half cup of flour and knead it into the dough. Continue this process until the dough is smooth and elastic, and does’tt stick to your hands. Then knead another five minutes to develop the gluten.
Lift the dough from the bowl and rub softened unsalted butter over the surface. Place the bowl in a warm place and cover with a damp clean towel. Let rise for 1 hour, or until doubled in volume. When the dough has finished rising, fill greased loaf pans 3/4 full and let rise in lightly warmed oven (no more than 100 degrees F.) until again doubled. Remove from the oven and heat the oven to 350'F. Place pans in the oven and cook for 30 minutes. Test bread by tapping lightly on top with a knuckle. If the loaf sounds hollow, it’s done. Remove from the oven and remove the bread from the loaf pans by inverting onto a cooling rack. Brush all sides with softened butter. Let cool completely before slicing and storing in plastic bags.



For 2 Loaves:Ingredients:
For 5 loaves
1/3 cup scalded milk 1
2 tsp. Yeast
3 tsp. Salt
3 tbs. cooking oil
5 tbs. honey or sugar
6 cups all purpose white flour

For 1 Loaf: Ingredients:

Ingredients:
1 2/3 cups scalded milk
1 tbs. Yeast
2 tsp.. Salt
3 tsp.s. cooking oil
7 tsp. honey or sugar
3 cups all purpose white flour


So there it is. What's the difference that wold make the single loaf recipe so very different than the 5 loaf recipe? I'm thinking my math was off.

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Old 04-06-2020, 09:39 AM   #8
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I have never used dry milk powder. Don't really want to buy it.

If I substitute whole milk for some of the water (⅓ C powder makes a cup of milk) and eliminate the powder, will this work?




Ingredients

Starter
1 cup (120g) King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour
1/3 to 1/2 cup (74g to 113g) cool water, enough to make a stiff ball of dough
pinch of instant yeast

Dough
all of the starter
2 cups (241g) King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour
1 1/4 teaspoons salt
2 tablespoons (14g) Baker's Special Dry Milk or nonfat dry milk
2 teaspoons instant yeast
2/3 cup (149g) lukewarm water
2 tablespoons (25g) olive oil

Topping
1 large egg white, beaten with 1 tablespoon cold water
1/2 cup (64g) sesame seeds
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Old 04-06-2020, 09:46 AM   #9
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Andy, I think you can. I believe a lot of recipes that include dry milk powder were developed during a time when liquid milk wasn't widely available.

It used to be much cheaper, too. My mom bought it when we were kids and we had it on our cereal. When we tried real milk for the first time, we didn't like it
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:18 AM   #10
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My mom would buy Alba dry milk and use 1/2 dry & 1/2 milk to stretch money.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:30 AM   #11
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"There was a substantial difference between the bread that came out of the machine, and the hand."


and there's your difference. use the same qtys and mix/knead by hand and compare to the bread machine product.


I would recommend you get a scale and weight the ingredients. seriously more accurate when scaling up/down.
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Old 04-06-2020, 07:30 PM   #12
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"The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promis'd joy!" -Robert Burns

We finished off a loaf of bread today. I saw this as a perfect opportunity to make a loaf of scali bread. In preparation, I read over the recipe to get started. I have all the ingredients, right?

Flour √
Yeast √
Salt √
Olive Oil √
Water √ of course
Milk √
Egg Whites √
Sesame Seeds ...OOOPS!

I guess I'll just make some sandwich bread.
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Old 04-07-2020, 12:21 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M. View Post
I have never used dry milk powder. Don't really want to buy it.

If I substitute whole milk for some of the water (⅓ C powder makes a cup of milk) and eliminate the powder, will this work?




Ingredients

Starter
1 cup (120g) King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour
1/3 to 1/2 cup (74g to 113g) cool water, enough to make a stiff ball of dough
pinch of instant yeast

Dough
all of the starter
2 cups (241g) King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour
1 1/4 teaspoons salt
2 tablespoons (14g) Baker's Special Dry Milk or nonfat dry milk
2 teaspoons instant yeast
2/3 cup (149g) lukewarm water
2 tablespoons (25g) olive oil

Topping
1 large egg white, beaten with 1 tablespoon cold water
1/2 cup (64g) sesame seeds
I"m sure substituting milk for some of the water would work. I still see a lot of recipes using fresh milk in breads.

However, many years ago, I learned somewhere (ATK or KAF - whoever it was did a test, making bread with both, and the dried milk recipe rose higher) that fresh milk has enzymes, and other proteins in it that slow down the yeast, and inhibit the gluten formation in the bread. But the proteins in the dried milk have been denatured, from the heating, and this doesn't happen. This might be why some really old recipes would call for scalding the milk, then cooling, before using it. I figured that it was to kill some things in it that might keep the yeast from working as well, and I didn't usually do it - the milk has been pasteurized, I figured, so why bother! Made more sense, when explained, like this. Now, I rarely have fresh milk, except in the form of buttermilk and yogurt, so I always use the powdered milk in a bread recipe calling for it.
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Old 04-07-2020, 07:09 AM   #14
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I think some bread recipes using dried milk powder were also developed when bread machines were a big thing and people didn't want to leave fresh milk out all day.

I have a bread machine recipe for a country white bread that uses milk powder that I still use today (bread machine is long gone) simply because we like the bread.
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Old 04-07-2020, 08:54 AM   #15
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And this is why I turn to DC with my cooking questions. I have worked in many teams, in the military, in professional Tech., in mu University projects, etc. In all cases, where each team member did their fair share of the work, the end result was superior than it would have been if only one person worked on the project. This is because each team member had something to add.

In this thread, we are a team, each member adding something so that we all learn and become more proficient with the subject - bread making.

andy, this is a great topic. I respect your vast cooking knowledge. you for opening this topic.

Though I have great respect for your input, you look to others for things you don't know, as we all should. Pepperhead, your last post in the thread talked about milk, and scalding it to denature enzymes that would inhibit yeast a activity, and maybe gluten formation. That impressed me, and your hypothesis is well though out.

All of the inputs have been well thought out, and not just wild guesses. DC is a great place to have questions answered, and for discussions, even when e have differences in opinion. That's how we learn and grow,m through discussion. Glad to be a part of it all.

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Old 04-07-2020, 11:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M. View Post
"The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promis'd joy!" -Robert Burns

We finished off a loaf of bread today. I saw this as a perfect opportunity to make a loaf of scali bread. In preparation, I read over the recipe to get started. I have all the ingredients, right?

Flour √
Yeast √
Salt √
Olive Oil √
Water √ of course
Milk √
Egg Whites √
Sesame Seeds ...OOOPS!

I guess I'll just make some sandwich bread.


Look what I found!!!

Click image for larger version

Name:	B5A9EF65-925A-49E9-8C84-1104D64540AA_1_105_c.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	52.4 KB
ID:	40232
Still going to make the sandwich bread today. But I'm ready to make the scali after.
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Old 04-07-2020, 12:07 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M. View Post
Look what I found!!!

Attachment 40232
Still going to make the sandwich bread today. But I'm ready to make the scali after.
Yay for sesame seeds. How much is in that jar? It looks little. I don't think I have ever bought less than half a kilogram of sesame seeds at one time.
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Old 04-07-2020, 12:13 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by taxlady View Post
Yay for sesame seeds. How much is in that jar? It looks little. I don't think I have ever bought less than half a kilogram of sesame seeds at one time.
It is a small jar. SO bought it to dress some "hamburger" cookies she makes for kids. The sesame seeds sprinkled on top makes a convincing bun. The recipe calls for ½ C. This is not that much but will be enough for me to make the bread.
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Click image for larger version

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ID:	40233  
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Old 04-07-2020, 12:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M. View Post
It is a small jar. SO bought it to dress some "hamburger" cookies she makes for kids. The sesame seeds sprinkled on top makes a convincing bun. The recipe calls for ½ C. This is not that much but will be enough for me to make the bread.
Those cookies are adorable, and yes, convincing.
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Old 04-07-2020, 12:51 PM   #20
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Those cookies are adorable, and yes, convincing.
They're relativey easy to assemble too.
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