At what point can you claim a recipe as 'Your Own'?

[GotGarlic]

The definition of when a recipe is your own - a copyright - is a legal one. It's not about the ingredients at all. It's about the original expression - written or visual - of how to make it.

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html

 

[mattdee1]

I realize I’m probably beating a dead horse at this point, but I don’t understand the frustration over wiggle room being left in written directions. When preparing a dish, is the goal to ensure that the result matches some precise standard devised according to the tastes of others, or is the goal to make a tasty meal? The latter in no way requires the former.



Rather than view lack of precision in the instructions as a hindrance or an annoyance, why not view it as an opportunity to take charge a little bit?

I agree that if the stated purpose of an article or cooking show is to teach beginners, then specifics are appropriate. But even when they are excluded or glossed over, there can still be valuable takeaways for a beginner (tools, techniques, concepts, etc.).

 

[Andy M.]

I realize I’m probably beating a dead horse at this point, but I don’t understand the frustration over wiggle room being left in written directions...

It's not a big deal for you or me. We're experienced. We would do fine with a recipe that just said "try some of these ingredients to make a pot roast."

My daughter, on the other hand, is not an accomplished cook and needs specificity to ensure the expected results. Being specific doesn't preclude making a tasty dish according to the recipe, it ensures it.

So you make the recipe and decide to make some changes next time - more salt, try thyme instead of rosemary, etc. You try these changes and feel it's still not right so you make more changes - too much thyme, cut back next time. How do you do that if you don't know how much you used last time? You need that starting point to adjust from.

If you don't like the specifics, you could certainly make adjustments as you go based on your experience. Specifics don't keep you making changes, they provide a foundation.

 

[GotGarlic]

I've got several recipes that the family loves that I've never written down, except for a list of ingredients. The quantities are seat of the pants every time, yet the dishes always seem to taste the same, within our ability to detect.

Maybe you could try an experiment. Give one of those recipes to a few people who you know like them, have them make them, and see how they turn out.

The purpose of a recipe is to allow others to recreate the dish, not just for the creator to use with their individual skill level.

 

[jennyema]

The definition of when a recipe is your own - a copyright - is a legal one. It's not about the ingredients at all. It's about the original expression - written or visual - of how to make it.

U.S. Copyright Office - Recipes

A copyright isn't a really definition of a recipe (or any other written work) being your own.

If you created it, its your own with or without a copyright.

A copyright allows you to protect it from being stolen by others.

 

[GotGarlic]

Actually, it is. The copyright for an original work belongs to the creator whether they register it with the government or not. Registration makes it easier to defend a copyright, but it's not required to own the copyright.

 

[GotGarlic]

I agree that if the stated purpose of an article or cooking show is to teach beginners, then specifics are appropriate. But even when they are excluded or glossed over, there can still be valuable takeaways for a beginner (tools, techniques, concepts, etc.).

Many beginners will blame themselves for a failure and say, "See! I can't cook!" and give up. If I'm trying to help them create a tasty dish, that's not the takeaway I want them to have.

 

[jennyema]

Actually, it is. The copyright for an original work belongs to the creator whether they register it with the government or not. Registration makes it easier to defend a copyright, but it's not required to own the copyright.

Yes, I know.

My point is that copyright is a tool one uses to protect a work of original creation from being copied or otherwise misused without permission.

IMO it doesn't define when something you create is "your own." If you created it, it is.

I agree though that when you have created an original work in the US you do hold a copyright for it. Its the "definition" aspect I disagree with.

But its probably ---->

 

[GotGarlic]

Yes, I think we're saying pretty much the same thing. The way I remember it being put in a Media Law class is that as soon as someone creates something - artwork, writing,etc. - in a fixed form, they automatically hold the copyright to it. If they want to make it easier to protect that copyright, they can register it with the U.S. Copyright Office, but that's not necessary to establish ownership.

There are a few rules, such as those pertaining to works for hire, that change that but it's beyond the scope of this discussion.

 

[jennyema]

I think I made a distinction without a difference, GG!

My copyright law was in 1981....

 

[CharlieD]

At what point can you claim a recipe as ' Your Own'?

I rarely follow a printed recipe. Not enough patience to read it thru. So most of the time it is my take on an ingredient mentioned in the recipe.


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[Cronker]

I usually take bits and pieces of recipes from books, internet, chef friends and experience and just wing it.
But I would never claim my roast chicken and tarragon dish as my own creation, even though it is my own variant on the classic dish.
Even less so with baking cakes, pastries and so on, whereby measuring ingredients accurately is important.

 

[Mad Cook]

Interesting question!

A quick sidetrack recalling my days as a moderator. You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions.

I realize that's not what you asked but it can provide a framework. I think we all fiddle a little with recipes, even if it's just to add more salt. I think you'd have to do more than that to own a recipe. For example, changing a significant ingredient or two and fiddling with the herbs and spices.

Changing the process is probably less common. If you're making a stew, how much can you change the instructions?

I guess if the chef that wrote the original recipe tastes yours and recognizes it, it's not your own yet.

" You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions." I'm not disputing the correctness of this but it always seems odd to me. How can Mrs A Cakemaker, writer of cookery books, claim the copyright on the basis of the instructions for a cake which generations of housewives have been making probably for a couple of hundred years and which no-one remembers who invented it.

I make a fruit cake from a recipe that I found in a famous cook's book (no names no pack-drill!). The cake as it came from the recipe she had published in her book was dry, boring and tasteless. I have changed the ingredients and added more, to the point where the recipe and the cake are unrecognisable as the same one, apart from the fact that I use the writer's stated method of making up the cake, which is one that features in almost any cookery book you open. Does that mean that the writer of the book I got the idea from owns my version of the recipe?

 

[jennyema]

" You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions."

I make a fruit cake from a recipe that I found in a famous cook's book (no names no pack-drill!). The cake as it came from the recipe she had published in her book was dry, boring and tasteless. I have changed the ingredients and added more, to the point where the recipe and the cake are unrecognisable as the same one, apart from the fact that I use the writer's stated method of making up the cake, which is one that features in almost any cookery book you open. Does that mean that the writer of the book I got the idea from owns my version of the recipe?

Andy's right. In a recipe, the list of ingredients cannot be protected but the description of how to make the dish can be.

The writer of the book owns the words that express how the recipe is made. If you use it exactly, you may have committed copyright infringement.

In your case you have changed the ingredients so the description will, by definition, also change. So it would depend on whether your version is substantially similar to the original. If it's too similar (though not verbatim) you could also be in trouble. In the US, at least.

 

[PrincessFiona60]

" You cannot copyright a list of ingredients but you can copyright the instructions." I'm not disputing the correctness of this but it always seems odd to me. How can Mrs A Cakemaker, writer of cookery books, claim the copyright on the basis of the instructions for a cake which generations of housewives have been making probably for a couple of hundred years and which no-one remembers who invented it.

I make a fruit cake from a recipe that I found in a famous cook's book (no names no pack-drill!). The cake as it came from the recipe she had published in her book was dry, boring and tasteless. I have changed the ingredients and added more, to the point where the recipe and the cake are unrecognisable as the same one, apart from the fact that I use the writer's stated method of making up the cake, which is one that features in almost any cookery book you open. Does that mean that the writer of the book I got the idea from owns my version of the recipe?

No this is your recipe, but you do have to re-write the instruction so they do not mirror what another person has already written. Are there no tips or tricks you can add? Your ingredient changes should change the instructions.

 

[Blackitty]

I'm sure lawyers have their own definition, but I figure that when your cross outs, arrows and notes in the cookbook become too messy to follow, prompting you to whip out a card and write it down so that you can keep it straight...it's yours.

 

[PrincessFiona60]

Unfortunately, it's when the lawyers get involved, that we have to worry about it. Please be sure to not post word for word directions from a website or cookbook.

 

[Kayelle]

Unfortunately, it's when the lawyers get involved, that we have to worry about it. Please be sure to not post word for word directions from a website or cookbook.

I understand that this website and all others have to publish and follow the letter of the law with what's required.

However there are only so many ways you can put instructions into words, and I doubt there are lawyers sweeping the recipe instructions of every recipe on the internet looking to file a a suit for instruction copyright abuses.

 

[PrincessFiona60]

I understand that this website and all others have to publish and follow the letter of the law with what's required.

However there are only so many ways you can put instructions into words, and I doubt there are lawyers sweeping the recipe instructions of every recipe on the internet looking to file a a suit for instruction copyright abuses.

No, but you can bet the author or their agent IS making the effort to find copyright infringement on the Internet. It's as easy as Googling the first sentence of the recipe.

 

[RPCookin]

No, but you can bet the author or their agent IS making the effort to find copyright infringement on the Internet. It's as easy as Googling the first sentence of the recipe.

Is it allowed to post such a recipe if credit is given, same as if you quote a passage from a book? Just wondering, no plans to do so. I usually give credit for the base recipe even if I've made some changes to it.