Marinating and Food Safety

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Elf

Senior Cook
Joined
May 10, 2006
Messages
259
Location
Greater Annapolis MD Area
Has anyone, and this is aimed at our Mex-Tex members, The El Paso Chile Co.'s Texas Bordr Cookbook?? They talk about leaving beef, chicken, shell fish out on the counter for several hours in different marinades. Do chile peppers really keep the meat, poultry, and shell fish safe? Personally I don't think so, but am I wrong??
 
Normally the germs that are going to harm us are on the surface of the meat and my guess is that an acidic marinade willl help kill them or at least stunt their growth.

We grind our own meats because when we do the bugs on the surface have just been ground into the rest of the meat. That contrasts with store purchased ground meat that has been sitting in the case with their ground in bacteria procreating for an unspecified period of time.

We do it because the freshly ground tastes good and not because of the bacterial contamination.

For many, many years bought the stuff ground from the market and have never had a problem.

My point is I believe we go a bit crazy about food germs.

Have been in Mexico in areas that I should not have been in (because of banditos), and eaten with many Mexicans whose food hygiene was not that many of us would be used to. That was what they had, those were poor areas.

And yet they survived.

There was no refrigeration at all. Particularly when we were in the Sonoran desert in the summer.

Never had a problem with the food. Was far more worried about the banditos than the grub. The banditios were a real menace.

Personally would not worry about leaving the stuff to marinate at room temp, but that is just me.

Everyone has to do what he/she feels comfortable with.

But dagnabbit (an old Gabby Hayes phrase) for some reason our ancestors got by with little to preserve the food.

That does not mean we should not be careful.

To me it just means we, sometimes, I believe, go a bit crazy about food preservation.
 
Chile peppers don't. Acid does to some extent.

I'd leave stuff out for 2 hours but that's about as long as I am comfortable with.

Marinating beef for several hours won't add much, probably. I ususally marinate overnight in the fridge and then let it sit out at room temp for 2 hours before cooking.

I marinate chicken in the fridge and again let it sit out for an hour or so before cooking.

Shellfish will be mushy if left to marinate for several hours if the marinade has acid in it. I marinate seafood for less than an hour and usually on the counter.
 
auntdot, HH and I were just talking about this in a roundabout way the other day. Kids today seem to have more asthma, ADD. allergies, etc. than we ever remember our fellow kids suffering in childhood.

What's the difference? There's more Clean Police around now than there were back then. We shared drinks out of pop bottles (bottles!), drank water from the hose, ate chicken that had been thawing on the counter all day, shared one bathroom with the rest of the family in which you used the least-wet towel for at least a week. You know what I'm talking about.

Elf, I think you will be OK.
 
auntdot said:
My point is I believe we go a bit crazy about food germs.
I agree, auntdot. I do wonder sometimes if our forebears didn't have more immunity to food-borne illnesses than we do. I remember my ex's grandma leaving things like fried chicken or beans out all night, sitting on the back of the stove, and eating them the next day.
Of course that chicken was cooked hard as a rock.
 
mudbug said:
auntdot, HH and I were just talking about this in a roundabout way the other day. Kids today seem to have more asthma, ADD. allergies, etc. than we ever remember our fellow kids suffering in childhood.

What's the difference? There's more Clean Police around now than there were back then. We shared drinks out of pop bottles (bottles!), drank water from the hose, ate chicken that had been thawing on the counter all day, shared one bathroom with the rest of the family in which you used the least-wet towel for at least a week. You know what I'm talking about.

Elf, I think you will be OK.
I don't know about that. I bet there are other environmental factors to blame for some of those problems, not to mention more diagnoses (too many sometimes?) and media attention.

I do think we have created a problem with our overuse of antibiotics and maybe even antibacterial products, with the former creating frightening results and the latter probably trimming our wallets more than keeping us healthy.

But in general, I'm glad we have more up-to-date information these days...doesn't mean you have to go nuts with them, but those bad habits from the past didn't always have such benign results.

Better safe than sorry, so I'm with jennyema on the two-hour limit at room temp.
 
I do believe in bringing food to room temp before cooking it. However, I marinate in the fridge unless it is for less than 1/2 an hour.
 
People often point back and say that our parents and their parents and their grandparents etc. left food out and survived. What they fail to say though is how many people actually did get sick. People also dies at a much younger age (for a variety of reasons). People get sick and even die from food borne illnesses all the time. I do not have any data to back up what I am saying, but I am willing to bet that it used to happen a lot more in years past. Just because someone has done it all their life will no ill effect does not mean it is safe. I will use the same analogy I always do which is you can drive a lifetime without ever wearing your seatbelt and you can do just fine. That one time you do get into an accident though you will be sorry you were not wearing it.

There used to be no seatbelts in cars. No one says, well my grandparents never wore one and they lived so I don't need to wear one. We have learned a lot about microbiology, bacteria, disease, and everything else. We need to use that knowledge to our advantage.
 
No one says, well my grandparents never wore one and they lived so I don't need to wear one.

You apparently never met my mother, you poor soul. She firmly believed that wearing a seat belt prevented you from miraculously being able to escape a collision.

So yes, your point is well-taken, GB.
 
My biggest problem with this is the ambiguous "several hours" for all meats mentioned. It's akin to the media useage of "tens of thousands" used to describe 10,001.

Marinades usually consist of three things: oil, acid, and flavorings (spices and/or herbs). The oil impedes oxygen from reaching the surface of the meat (bacteria usually need oxygen to proliferate), the acid helps to kill or limit bacterial growth, and the herbs/spices do nothing but add flavor. If the marinade also includes something alcoholic (which might replace the oil and acid) - that's just another antimicrobial agent.

Shell fish (shrimp for example) would be cooked by the acid in the marinade in a relatively short time, and if left for "several hours" would not only be cooked (denatured) but would also begin to be digested and turn to mush.

Chicken, although not as delicate as shell fish, would also begin to be digested from prolonged marination ... that happens with chicken marinated in buttermilk in the refrigerator for 18-24 hours.

Beef can safely handle longer marination periods at room temp (4-12 hours).

Again, without knowing what "several" means, the marinade recipe, and the protein involved (beef, chicken, pork, lamb/goat, shell fish) it's really hard to guage what would or would not be safe.

However - shrouded in a cloud of doubt - this cookbook is written and published in the USA and I'm sure the authors, and publishers, would have some concerns about liability if they were promoting unsafe food practices.

Of course - I'm sure you could e-mail them your concerns (their Contact Us webpage is here - and they have a toll-free phone number) and they could answer your questions.
 
Yes, the Clean Police have contributed to our problems of resistant bacteria with the constant use of anti-bacterial kitchen and bath products, just as has the public's insistence on mis-use of antibiotics (either demanding them when they are of no use or not using them as they are prescribed to the end of the prescription).
Spices do have some anti-bacterial properties along with salt and acid but not excessive for long periods of time.
People who live in the areas of Mexico that AuntDot mentioned probably have a much more highly developed immune system to the ambient bacteria than I would if I arrived fresh from the US. It is a Russian roullette (sp.) game and I was always glad to avoid it.
 
this may help a little:

source: Capsium
Chiles and Foodborne Bacteria– Of the many health benefits offered by chiles, one of the most significant is their capacity to prevent foodborne bacterial disease. In a study published in the March 1998 volume of the Quarterly Review of Biology, researchers tested a long list of spices against thirty different harmful bacteria which can occur in foods. Chiles killed over 75% of the thirty germs in the study. The agent in chiles which appears to kill bacteria is capsaicin. In another study, capsaicin was found to inhibit the rare but sometimes fatal Vibrio vulnificus bacteria, which is found in raw shellfish. Eating chiles is not only a tasty and feel-good experience, but defends your body against nasty microbes as well.

and:

source: Aquatic Invasive Species, Ohio Sea Grant College Program/MB-2
Toxicity studies of two natural product antifoulants (NPAs): capsaicin and zosteric acid, were evaluated using both a standard Microtox assay and a static toxicity test. The EC50 values of various fresh water bacteria: P. putida and enriched bacteria isolated from the Lake Erie water, and marine bacteria: V. natriegens and V. parahaermolyticus, were found to the in the range of 3 to 23 mg/L for capsaicin, and 10 to 440 mg/L for zosteric acid. These values are substantially higher, meaning less toxic, than the currently used antifoulants, such as TBT (EC50 < 0.01 ppb).

Bon Appetite :)
 
However - shrouded in a cloud of doubt - this cookbook is written and published in the USA and I'm sure the authors, and publishers, would have some concerns about liability if they were promoting unsafe food practices.

I wonder. I can't tell you how many times I've seen instructions for recipes in cookbooks published in the U.S. that are potentially harmful. Basting with a marinade without boiling it first and using raw egg whites are two examples that come to mind.
 
suzyQ3 said:
However - shrouded in a cloud of doubt - this cookbook is written and published in the USA and I'm sure the authors, and publishers, would have some concerns about liability if they were promoting unsafe food practices.

I wonder. I can't tell you how many times I've seen instructions for recipes in cookbooks published in the U.S. that are potentially harmful. Basting with a marinade without boiling it first and using raw egg whites are two examples that come to mind.


Basting with a marinade is ok, as the marinade will very likely come to safe temp as the meat cooks. Using the unboiled marinade as a sauce is a big no no. A cookbook that suggests that is ok should have its editor fired.
 
jennyema said:
Using the unboiled marinade as a sauce is a big no no.
100% agreed!

if it`s come in contact with the meat, either cook it, wash it off or throw it, DON`T eat it raw!
 
jennyema said:
Basting with a marinade is ok, as the marinade will very likely come to safe temp as the meat cooks. Using the unboiled marinade as a sauce is a big no no. A cookbook that suggests that is ok should have its editor fired.

I was referring to recipes that instruct you to baste at the end or towards the end of cooking. I've seen grilled chicken dishes like that, where the marinade has some sweetener that would cause the chicken to burn if applied earlier. That marinade should be boiled first.
 
suzyQ3 said:
I was referring to recipes that instruct you to baste at the end or towards the end of cooking. I've seen grilled chicken dishes like that, where the marinade has some sweetener that would cause the chicken to burn if applied earlier. That marinade should be boiled first.


I'll disagree still and argue that basting "toward the end" of grilling will heat the small amount of marinade to a temp which will kill most bacteria. Medium heat on a gas grill is 350 or so degrees, at which it won't take long to kill the bacteria. Esp. with a sugar-based marinade (which will help inhibit bacteria in the first place). I'm not sure why you'd baste right before pulling something off the grill, but that wouldn't be safe, I agree.
 
The marinade calls for 2 cups store bought hot salsa, 4 fresh jalapeno, 1/4 cup tequila, 1/4 cup lime juice, 1 cup beer, you are putting in a food processor then pouring it on the shrimp, lobster, chicken and skirt steak, then stirring the once or twice, for 2 hrs. then grilling the steak for 7 min. fliping and adding the chicken , shrimp, lobster and cooking another 7 min. now that I think about it, the shell fish would be on the mushy side. VT thanks for the info on capsium, that was the type of info I was looking for. It isn't that I am overly concerned, it just seemed odd to leave chicken and shell fish out that long.
 
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