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Old 05-09-2016, 10:21 AM   #41
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When I lived in Tacoma, you could buy raw milk then. (the 70's) I often would buy it. And both Poo and myself loved it. I never got sick nor did Poo. And when I was working at the WWF, I would go out to the dairy barn early in the morning and get a cup of cream for my coffee. Also some raw milk. Straight from the cows. It would still be steaming from the body heat of the animals.

Raw milk and cream have what I could only describe as being "complete". It was so rich. In its own right the milk was "skim" milk. But you would never know it. It still had the flavor of milk like milk should taste.

When you whipped up raw cream, you really had to watch it closely, or you would end up with butter real quick.

Neither Poo or myself ever got sick.
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:45 AM   #42
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Do you all understand why the scientific method exists? Because I'm getting the impression you think a bunch of anecdotes add up to proof. They don't.
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:02 AM   #43
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Do you all understand why the scientific method exists? Because I'm getting the impression you think a bunch of anecdotes add up to proof. They don't.
A better question is "Why does it bother you so much?" We are offering life experiences that in no way conflict with your "scientific method." I haven't seen anyone say you are wrong, only that we haven't experienced any ill effects from drinking raw milk.

All that means is that it isn't automatic that you will get sick from drinking unprocessed milk - it also doesn't guarantee that you won't get sick. But then, there are lots of ways to get sick from foods that have supposedly been properly processed (witness the almost weekly warnings and recalls from grocer's shelves), so there aren't any guarantees from that either.
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:09 AM   #44
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What I and other good producers used to do was wash the teat's with a mild cholrox solution, then dry them with single use paper towels, and milk the first few squirts of milk into what is called a strip cup. It's just a little aluminum cup with a fine mesh screen over it. If the milk had any clots in it it could be an early sign of mastitis. After milking we would spray the teat opening with another antibacterial agent. We's also keep udderc clipped free of hair. The big cow dairys use a blow torch to burn it off. No kidding!
I didn't know about that. Thanks for the information.
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:21 AM   #45
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Everyone knows that pasteurized milk is safer. Still, what an informed individual chooses to eat should be up to that individual. Now that I know longer have a dairy I drink pasteurized only. If I could find a supplier whose methods I approved of I would buy raw.

There used to be a grade A goat dairy a few miles from me. Money must have exchanged hands for it to be given grade A status. I know the standards and he didn't come close to meeting them. On top of that, he just rinsed his hoses in water after milking. I don't think they'd ever seen a strong alkaline cleaner or acid rinse. He didn't even own the brush you're suppose to pull through the hoses once a week. Can you imagine the bacteria in those hoses? He didn't even chill his milk in ice water. He just stuck the bucket in the fridge and let it cool slowly. Think of all the time that milk had to grow bacteria until it got cold. He pasteurized so the milk was safe, but he did not put out a quality product.

I was not grade A. I always asked my customers if they wanted pasteurized or raw. I had a 3 gallon pasteurizer and would happily do it on request. The vast majority wanted raw. They believed rightly or wrongly that raw was more healthful.
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:30 AM   #46
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A better question is "Why does it bother you so much?" We are offering life experiences that in no way conflict with your "scientific method." I haven't seen anyone say you are wrong, only that we haven't experienced any ill effects from drinking raw milk.
I don't know that it's a better question, but I'll answer it It bothers me because the internet and our country are awash in pseudoscientific thinking that seriously hurts people. Since the internet is forever, and I care about this site, it's important to me to counter it when I can.

DH is a science teacher/administrator; among other subjects, he taught experimental design for several years and he's going to be a judge at the Virginia Junior Academy of Sciences conference next week; I've learned a lot from him during 32 years of marriage. Also, I worked at a medical school for 14 years, where I learned a lot about how basic and clinical research is conducted. All I'm saying is that a series of anecdotes doesn't add up to evidence.

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All that means is that it isn't automatic that you will get sick from drinking unprocessed milk - it also doesn't guarantee that you won't get sick. But then, there are lots of ways to get sick from foods that have supposedly been properly processed (witness the almost weekly warnings and recalls from grocer's shelves), so there aren't any guarantees from that either.
I never said it was automatic. But the consequences of being on the losing side of that gamble can be horrific, so I think it's important to have balance in the conversation. Take a look back at Kayelle's' comment in this thread.
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:30 AM   #47
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When I lived in Tacoma, you could buy raw milk then...
I think this is the third time you've mentioned that in this thread. We get it.
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Old 05-09-2016, 12:12 PM   #48
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I don't know that it's a better question, but I'll answer it It bothers me because the internet and our country are awash in pseudoscientific thinking that seriously hurts people. Since the internet is forever, and I care about this site, it's important to me to counter it when I can.

DH is a science teacher/administrator; among other subjects, he taught experimental design for several years and he's going to be a judge at the Virginia Junior Academy of Sciences conference next week; I've learned a lot from him during 32 years of marriage. Also, I worked at a medical school for 14 years, where I learned a lot about how basic and clinical research is conducted. All I'm saying is that a series of anecdotes doesn't add up to evidence.



I never said it was automatic. But the consequences of being on the losing side of that gamble can be horrific, so I think it's important to have balance in the conversation. Take a look back at Kayelle's' comment in this thread.
I for one appreciate your dedication to the facts GG. Far too many threads about food safety here are challenged by those who chant "but I never got sick". Well bully for you, you just dodged the Russian Roulette bullet. It's really as simple as that.
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Old 05-09-2016, 12:17 PM   #49
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I for one appreciate your dedication to the facts GG. Far too many threads about food safety here are challenged by those who chant "but I never got sick". Well bully for you, you just dodged the Russian Roulette bullet. It's really as simple as that.
Thank, Kayelle
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Old 05-09-2016, 04:36 PM   #50
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Yes, back in the late 70's/early 80's I purchased and drank raw milk, and fed it to my DW and my children. Im not sure I would do that now as I have learned more about contaminants.

The mortality rate of babies was at one time rather high in this nation. It was discovered in the early 1900's that the listeria infections causing infant distress, and death was caused mostly by the consumption of raw milk. Laws were enacted to force many milk producers to pasteurise their milk. The number of infant, and small child deaths fell remarkably low, at least those caused by food born infections.

Yes, it's true that there was a recent listeria outbreak and there have been e-coli outreaks in veggies. But to my memory, I have not seen a milk related outbreak of food born ilness. I'm not a fan of ultra-pasteurisation, but if science truly makes food born illness less of a danger, and still produce a viable product, who am I to argue? I will stick with pasteurised milk to drink. Now raw cheese cheese on the other hand...

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Old 05-09-2016, 04:40 PM   #51
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The problem, as i understand it, isn't from the milk itself, but from contaminants that may be on the teet, or on the milking equipment, pails and such. The milk comes out cleaned by the immune system of the cow, just a mother's milk is pristine for the nursing baby in humans. Listeria and its cousins are introduced to milk, and other foods through processing equipment. Pasteurization destroys the nasy critters before they get into your gut.

Milk could be bombarded with gamma, or x-rays to destroy the microbes as well, but people tend to be afraid of anything that's been irradiated, not understanding the process, or the science behind it. I do know that boiling milk changes the flavor, and IMO, not in a good way if I want to simply drink the milk.

Personally, I would like to find out what freeze-dried milk tastes like. It would be shelf stable, and should taste like ordinary milk when water is again added. At least, that's my first expectation.

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Didn't they used to sell freeze dried skim milk? Some sort of process that involved spraying and freezing? The dry product had a similar texture to freeze dried instant coffee. Whatever the process, it was better than the regular powdered milk, but still not very nice.

I'm cautious and mildly skeptical of irradiated food. People usually assume that I don't understand about the process. No, I don't think that irradiating food with ionizing radiation makes it radioactive. I also don't think that shining light (electromagnetic radiation) on food will make it emit light or that putting a cell phone, which emits radio-frequency radiation (part of electromagnetic radiation), on my food will cause the food to make phone calls.

I'm concerned about possible nutrient loss. I have read that it can degrade the flavour of fats. I'm concerned that food processors will be less cautious with foods that will be irradiated, because the ionizing radiation will kill all (or almost all) the mico-organisms. Packaged foods have regulations about how many insect parts, rodent hairs, and poop is allowed in packaged foods (the amounts are tiny). I don't want the amount of allowed poop to be increased, just because it isn't a health hazard. I know, that's an emotional, rather than a scientific perspective.
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:02 PM   #52
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I don't know that it's a better question, but I'll answer it It bothers me because the internet and our country are awash in pseudoscientific thinking that seriously hurts people. Since the internet is forever, and I care about this site, it's important to me to counter it when I can.

...
I really appreciate that. Thank you for the reminder. I will try to be more cautious how I write my skeptical and contrarian views.

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I never said it was automatic. But the consequences of being on the losing side of that gamble can be horrific, so I think it's important to have balance in the conversation. Take a look back at Kayelle's' comment in this thread.
It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

Yes, drinking raw milk is a gamble, but with benefits as well as risks. This is why I like the West Virginia law about raw milk. They still won't be able to sell it. The people getting it will have to sign a waiver stating that they understand the risks. I'm all in favour of food safety regulations. But, I like leaving it open for people to make their own, informed choices.
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:52 PM   #53
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Love raw milk. Grew up on it. Of course back then it was one owner, with one cow, that was practically family pet. There was no problem with it.
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:13 PM   #54
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This is a new one to me, someone I know told me that if you boil milk it will increase its shelf life.

I am not to sure about this because once you open the package, the milk is exposed to air which shortens the shelf life.

I could Google this, but I though it may be interesting as a general topic for others to be aware of.

Thoughts...comment?

Thanks,
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Commercially sterilised milk and UHT milk both have a longer shelf life that pasteurised or raw milk ....UNTIL the packages are opened. Thereafter they only have the same life as fresh milk. My friend's mother, a farmer's daughter brought up before the wide availability of household refrigerators, always boiled her doorstep milk as soon as it was delivered to keep it fresh. I don't think it kept any longer than the un-boiled milk would have done as she kept it in a jug with a clean cloth over it in the coolness of the cellar.

Both UHT (Ultra heat treated) and sterilised (ie boiled) milks taste vile especially in tea and coffee so I stick with my ordinary doorstep delivery milk and keep it in the 'fridge.
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:20 PM   #55
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If you have a surfeit of milk you can use it in porridge, rice pudding (short grain rice and don't boil it in water before adding the milk), milky coffee, bread pudding, egg custard and any dish connected with it.

Just don't give it to the cat - it's bad for felines.
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Old 05-17-2016, 03:19 PM   #56
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Commercially sterilised milk and UHT milk both have a longer shelf life that pasteurised or raw milk ....UNTIL the packages are opened. Thereafter they only have the same life as fresh milk. My friend's mother, a farmer's daughter brought up before the wide availability of household refrigerators, always boiled her doorstep milk as soon as it was delivered to keep it fresh. I don't think it kept any longer than the un-boiled milk would have done as she kept it in a jug with a clean cloth over it in the coolness of the cellar.

Both UHT (Ultra heat treated) and sterilised (ie boiled) milks taste vile especially in tea and coffee so I stick with my ordinary doorstep delivery milk and keep it in the 'fridge.
Doorstep delivery? That's gone the way of the dinosaur here. There may still be some pockets of the US where it's available, but that would be an exception. I still remember the days when every home had an insulated box on the front step for the milkman to put the delivery in, but no more.

There is still one dairy serving the Denver area and the front range, but in 35 years living there, I never knew anyone who used the service. I used to start work at 5 AM, and I on rare occasions I saw a milk truck on my way to work, but that was it. There was a time when, if you were out before dawn on a weekday, you almost couldn't help but see one.
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