20% required tip, what do you think?

[ironchef]

I have a problem with 'required' tipping. How is that different from a surcharge? I agree that food service personnel should receive a liveable wage. I think it's completely inappropriate to pay someone less than minimum wage with the belief/expectation that it will be supplemented by tips.

Additionally, I believe that tipping should be a reward for exceptional service that should go directly to the individual for whom it was intended. A lot of places require that all tips be placed into a common pool that is divided evenly at the end of the shift.

Read my posts again. They should help you understand the business aspect of it, and give you a better understanding of how the industry works.

You live in Vegas, ask the employees there what they would like. I guarantee that they will say that if they cannot get an hourly rate which is equivalent to what they make now, there is no way in h.ell that they'll want to do that. If working for tips was such a bad thing, then why do so many people do it? They all know that they'll make significantly more money waiting or cocktailing than ringing up items at Walmart.

 

[GB]

I have not traveled a lot, but from my understanding the USA is way in the minority for countries where tipping is expected. I don't buy the reason that the economy stinks as a reason restaurants can't charge more. the economy was not always this bad and even though it has tanked recently look at what people are spending their money on. Plasma, flat screen, and HDTV's that cost thousands. SUV's that cost way more than equivalent cars and suck down way more gas even though gas prices continue to break records. You would think that people would travel less because of that, but travel by car is UP. People are dropping money on things like Ipods left and right. There is two or three hundred dollars. What about video game machines and the games that go with them. Yes the economy is bad and the dollar is down, but that is not stopping people from spending money on recreational things. I have a hard time believing that people would not pay a few bucks more to go out to dinner. Maybe the middle class would not be able to afford to go to the nicer places as often. Maybe they would have to go to more local mom and pop places that do not charge quite as much. I am sure there would be a shift in the types of restaurants that people go to, at least initially, but if so many other countries are able to have restaurants where the wait staff gets paid a regular salary then we should be able to do it too. I am sure some of those countries have a worse economy than we do or at least at some point they did. Just my 2 cents.

Ironchef you know a lot more about this stuff than I do. That is for sure, so i am not trying to say that I am right and you are wrong. I just don't see why everyone else can pull this off and we can't. More likely I think it is that we don't want to try. It is the same (from where I sit at least) as trying to get the US to use the Metric system. We could do it, but people don't like change.

 

[amber]

I wouldnt go to a restaurant that has a required tip. I pay depending on the service. I'm with GB, give a decent wage so people dont have to depend on tips. ( taken out of context, but I think that was the jist of that repsonse)

 

[licia]

It looks like our basic choice is to decide if we want to go to places that charge the service charges or high gratuities or not. Some of them are worth it, but some that charge are not worth it so I suppose we just make our own choice. My son paid much of his way thru school waiting tables, but he was stiffed a time or two out of quite large sums. That hurt him. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to some of the high end places and none like some of those mentioned.

 

[ironchef]

I have not traveled a lot, but from my understanding the USA is way in the minority for countries where tipping is expected. I don't buy the reason that the economy stinks as a reason restaurants can't charge more. the economy was not always this bad and even though it has tanked recently look at what people are spending their money on. Plasma, flat screen, and HDTV's that cost thousands. SUV's that cost way more than equivalent cars and suck down way more gas even though gas prices continue to break records. You would think that people would travel less because of that, but travel by car is UP. People are dropping money on things like Ipods left and right. There is two or three hundred dollars. What about video game machines and the games that go with them. Yes the economy is bad and the dollar is down, but that is not stopping people from spending money on recreational things. I have a hard time believing that people would not pay a few bucks more to go out to dinner. Maybe the middle class would not be able to afford to go to the nicer places as often. Maybe they would have to go to more local mom and pop places that do not charge quite as much. I am sure there would be a shift in the types of restaurants that people go to, at least initially, but if so many other countries are able to have restaurants where the wait staff gets paid a regular salary then we should be able to do it too. I am sure some of those countries have a worse economy than we do or at least at some point they did. Just my 2 cents.

Ironchef you know a lot more about this stuff than I do. That is for sure, so i am not trying to say that I am right and you are wrong. I just don't see why everyone else can pull this off and we can't. More likely I think it is that we don't want to try. It is the same (from where I sit at least) as trying to get the US to use the Metric system. We could do it, but people don't like change.

There's a difference though when people complain about prices regarding food and beverage vs. something like electronics or material items. Maybe it's because people know that if they complain enough about a steak or fish, the restaurant will more than likely comp it or give them a free dessert or appetizer. People look at the purchase of a meal vs. the purchase of a material item in two completely different views and mindsets. You said it yourself, the same people will who dispute a $2.00 charge for extra cheese will drop $3,000 on a HD Widescreen TV. Why? I have no idea. That's just how people are. I've seen the types of guests that the restaurants I've worked in have gotten over the past few years and I've seen the decline in the quality of those types of guests as well. Why they'll buy a 4.8L V-8 and that takes only 92 octane fuel resulting in $80 worth of gas every week, yet they won't spend the extra money in a restaurant is beyond me. However, I have heard many people and guests claim that the reason why they "can't or don't eat out often" is because it's too pricey. Why do people do the things they do? Who knows. But the economy does play a big part. If it didn't, than it wouldn't be a problem at all for restaurants to charge even more than some of them already do. People wouldn't complain that restaurants are not already overpriced because it wouldn't be an issue. But competition plays a big part as well. Unless every similar type restaurant all raised their prices collectively, that will never happen. Will the restaurant be willing to risk that initial and possibly permanent drop in both business and revenue? Will they be willing to risk possible employee defection? Do they have enough saved away where that absorb that initial drop in business?

 

[GB]

You said it yourself, the same people will who dispute a $2.00 charge for extra cheese will drop $3,000 on a HD Widescreen TV.

I don't recall saying that. What I was trying to say was that even though the economy is bad right now that is not stopping people from spending on luxury items which would include going out to eat.

Unless every similar type restaurant all raised their prices collectively, that will never happen

I completely agree with this for the most part. Almost no one (if anyone) is going to take that first step, especially alone. It would be a death sentence to that restaurant. If tipping was abolished by law (something that never would happen, nor do I think it should come to that) then everyone would be on the same playing field and it could work.

My point is that other countries with worse economies have made a non tipping system work. It is a shame it won't happen here.

 

[ironchef]

I don't recall saying that.

Not literally, but figuratively. I was taking your point and giving an example that we often get in the restaurants from people who have the disposable income to spend.

 

[Andy M.]

Employees' relying directly on their customers' goodwill for a living wage is clearly not the norm. Most of the business world pays a living wage to their employees and passes the cost along to their customers. If employees don't perform, they're fired.

There's no reason why that couldn't work in the restaurant industry. Let's say you go to dinner and the check is $100. You leave a 20% tip because it's expected and the service was acceptable. Dinner costs you $120.

The next day you go to another restaurant and the check is $120. The restaurant advises their customers up front that tipping is not allowed and that they assume the responsibility for paying their employees a fair wage. Either way, dinner costs you $120. You lose direct control over the reward system.

If the waiter underperforms, you complain. If enough people complain about the waiter, he gets fired. How's that for incentive to do a good job? Just like in the business world. The restaurant has extra revenue to pay their employees fairly.

Of course, no one wants to be the first one on the block to take that step because their prices would be perceived to be higher.

 

[corazon]

Being a waiter is harder than you would think. I always assume that people that don't leave me a good tip have NEVER worked in a restaurant before. It is a tough job and we run our butts off trying to make customers happy. And sometimes they are never happy, no matter what you do. You have to be a mind reader to be a server, which is impossible but we do the best we can.

If the food isn't cooked to the exact way they like it with the sauce on the side, the steak cooked between rare and medium-rare, and their salad with no tomatoes but they want substitute them for a new car, or the lights are too bright, or there is a car alarm going off outside, it is the waitstaff who have to deal with all of these issues and it is the customers who blame the waitstaff for everything that is wrong in their lives! The customers don't always realize it is not our fault and because of this they stiff us on the tip.

Not only this but you have a bunch of tables who all are saying these things to you at once. Running around as fast as you can, trying to remember everything. You are going to the bar to get more alchoholic drinks, taking orders, giving refills, making desserts, bussing tables, running food, making espresso drinks, checking on your tables one minute after they get their food, and taking care of all those little requests your customers have before they have the chance to ask you for them. And for some strange reason, every single one of your tables decide they are all going to show up at the exact same time. So your the work of doing all these things for just one table has now turned into doing them for ten tables.

Personally, I think you all need to go out and get a job waiting tables. You'll get paid $2.13/hour and you think your tips will make you a "decent" wage but sometimes you end up getting a handful of tables in an 8 hour day and go home with enough for the gas you spent getting there and back and enough to pay the babysitter (take last thursday, I had 5 tables in 6 hours. After tipping out the kitchen, the hostess, and the bartender, I spent about $10 in gas for there and back and had to pay our babysitter for playing all day with our son, it wasn't even worth going to work)

It's a horrible job, but it pays the bills and I keep telling myself someday I will have a better job, but until that day comes "Would you like to look at our dessert menu?"

 

[Andy M.]

Corazon90:

I realize waiters and waitresses work hard for their money. I know it without having ever worked as a waiter because I can see it for myself. That's why I suggested your employer take responsibility for paying you for a job well done rather than leaving it up to a constantly changing rotation of strangers.

I know what the waitperson is responsible for and what is the kitchen's responsibility and don't penalize the waitperson for the chef's screw-up. I do notice how the waitperson handles my complaint and take that into account.

Some folks are just cheapos and will use any excuse to stiff a service employee. If I can't afford to leave a tip, I wouldn't go out to dinner.

 

[AllenOK]

Sorry, all, but I just now saw this thread.

My 2¢

For most of my professional career, I've worked in country clubs. Country club business is much different from a regular restaurant. Therefore, the "tipping" is also different.

Members pay X dollars a month, what is called a "minimum", which is credited to their account. Greens Fees, locker-room fees (if any, I'm not sure about that), plus any food that is "purchased", is signed for, a percentage tip tacked onto that, and the total is debited from their account. Here's the kicker: If, at the end of the month, you HAVEN'T spent/signed for the amount of money you paid (the "minimum"), you LOOSE it! That's right, it's gone! So, we get the usual weekly "rush", which climaxes on the weekend, but, we also get a monthly buildup, with a surge of orders in the last week of the month, and some of those are really oddball "to go" things, like raw steaks, fruit platters, etc., anything to spend that "minimum".

That said, we basically have a "captive" clientelle. We know that we will get X amount of business in a given month. Any parties above that is extra money, although many clubs count on catering business to supplement the income of the kitchen.

At the club I work at, it is explained to the members that a percentage tip is added to each ticket, and no cash tip is required. This percentage gratuity is put into a general fund for the employees, and used to hire in employees at a higher rate than is normally expected for a "regular" restaurant.

If any member does give out a cash tip, it is kept "under the table". You don't mention it.

Personally, when I go out to eat, and I receive good service, I'll tip good. I have yet to go to a restaurant that adds a percentage tip to ALL orders, although many do mention a 15% tip automatically added to parties of 8 or more.

Not only that, but if I go out to a restaurant, and order something that I am picky about, like a high-dollar steak, cooked to order, and it comes out exactly like I want it, I'll send a tip back to the cook, as well as what I tip the waitstaff.

 

[The Z]

Employees' relying directly on their customers' goodwill for a living wage is clearly not the norm. Most of the business world pays a living wage to their employees and passes the cost along to their customers.

That's all I'm saying. To say that "this is the way things work" is just not sufficient. It may very well BE the way things work and I'm sure there are perfectly good justifications for this system, but that does not mean that it's right. A mandatory "tip" might seem perfectly reasonable to some, but a tip is something extra that is given for exemplary service.

Maybe I'm old school.

It has been suggested that increased prices to compensate for higher wages (or at least INFORMING people of that) would be 'inappropriate' or 'tacky'. I am left to wonder what the difference really is between THAT and a "mandatory tip" (aka 'surcharge') to supplement a restaurant's inability to budget for an appropriate wage for their employees.

Aren't there other ways to cut costs other than assuming that waitstaff are just used to working for $2.00 an hour and collecting tips to survive? Surely... there must be, right?

 

[Andy M.]

...Aren't there other ways to cut costs other than assuming that waitstaff are just used to working for $2.00 an hour and collecting tips to survive? Surely... there must be, right?

I don't think so. It's not realistic to expect the employer can just find extra bucks to pay the help more. That would suggest he wasn't already doing everything he could to maximize profits. The money still has to come from the customer, it's just handled as a price increase rather than a 'tip' and it allows the people who know the server's performance best to make the pay decisions.

 

[Dove]

Allen.Back to the old "use it or loose it.."

I waitressed when minimun wage was 50 cents per hour. No tips..it was a Navy town and they didn't have the money to tip.
We not only took orders but fixed what they ordered and did the dishes too. ( Good ol 1950's Malt shop. We had fun though.

 

[corazon]

Corazon90:

I realize waiters and waitresses work hard for their money. I know it without having ever worked as a waiter because I can see it for myself. That's why I suggested your employer take responsibility for paying you for a job well done rather than leaving it up to a constantly changing rotation of strangers.

I know what the waitperson is responsible for and what is the kitchen's responsibility and don't penalize the waitperson for the chef's screw-up. I do notice how the waitperson handles my complaint and take that into account.

Some folks are just cheapos and will use any excuse to stiff a service employee. If I can't afford to leave a tip, I wouldn't go out to dinner.

Thanks Andy M.
As far as the employer paying for a job well done, that would be great! I'd love to be able to rely on a consistant wage, not whether or not we will get busy.

As far as complaints go, sometimes it is the kitchen's fault and the waitstaff should look to make sure it is correct before taking it out if it is something we can spot. Sometimes we can't see the mistake beforehand. And then if you do spot the mistake before you take it out, the kitchen undoubtedly has to remake the dish and your customers are mad because it's taking so long to get their food even if you explained why.

Hmm...how the waitstaff handles the complaint. That is also not in our control sometimes. I work at a place now where the owner is sooo stingy, he'd probably jump out a window before comping a meal. My tips suffer because of this. I do everything in my power for the customer with a complaint but it is up to the owner or manager to do something that could really make a difference and make that complaining customer want to come back again. The restaurant I worked at previously was very good about recieving complaints. They would give out a card for a free entree which the customer would come back at a later date and have a great meal, and then they would keep returning! Just because it was bad once, doesn't mean it will be bad the next time.

And you're right, some people are just cheapos!

 

[Ishbel]

In the UK tipping at restaurants is expected to be about 20 per cent. However, many, many restaurants have a 'servicecharge' on your bill, in which case there is no need to leave a tip. I am uncomfortable with the latter, as I know that waitresses and waiters often rely on the tips given to them, and I am suspicious that little if indeed anything that you give as a service charge will actually GET to the servers.

We also tip cabbies and hairdressers. In a pub, it is not expected, but if you like the service, then you can offer to buy the barmaid a drink - in many cases she will say 'thanks, I'll take one for later' - and will charge you a basic sum (about 2 pounds) - which goes in her 'glass' (each staff member usually has their own, although I've noticed recently that often all the staff on shift put their 'drink' in the one glass - presumably to share out equally at the end of the shift.

I found it amazing in Australia and New Zealand that you do not tip. And, in some cases, the cabbie or whoever gets a little irritated that you are suggesting it! I presume they do not wish to be thought to be 'servants' of anyone.....

 

[GB]

corazon90 I am in the same boat as Andy. I have never been a waiter, but I can tell how difficult a job it is. I know that it is a job that I would never be able to do. I have had friends who did it and it really does take a certain type of person to handle it. I give you a lot of credit for doing that job.

I understand you point about customers complaining about everything and making it your problem. If the A/C is too cold then it is your problem. If the steak is not cooked right then it is not the cooks fault, but yours ect.

I have had many jobs in both sales and customer service and the same sorts of things happen in those jobs. I used to work for a large bank doing sales for them. I would get people who I was talking to who would blame me personally for the fees the bank charged. I now work at an internet type company and if the website goes down it is my fault (even if it was because a blizzard just blew through and knocked out the power). The difference is that these people do not have the power to affect my income as a way of punishing me for these things they were unhappy about.

I think that because being a waiter or waitress is such a hard and sometimes thankless job that you guys should get paid a fair wage and not have to rely on people who decide if they want to pay you and can use any reason they want for not tipping.

I like the way Andy talked about a $100 bill and tipping $20 or just having the bill come to $120 and no tipping is allowed. The money is the same, but the power is taken away from the customer and given to the restaurant or employee. I do not feel that tips are necessary to ensure good service. I believe that most people want to do a good job were they work because people like things well. plus if you don't perform well then you get fired.

I give you a lot of credit for doing the job you do corazon90. Especially since it is something I would never want to do.

 

[DampCharcoal]

MAN! You guys are pretty passionate about whether or not to throw a few bucks on the table at the end of the meal! Here's my experience, take it as you will. I was a server for two years at TGI Fridays and I will never do it again. The job is VERY stressful and the pay is a constant rollercoaster. It's impossible to predict how much money you'll make, you might make 40 bucks on a bad day and 200 bucks on a good day. Personally, I tip at least 25% of the bill everytime because I know what servers go through, I've tipped up to 40% when I see that a server is having a particularly bad day. I'm not sure how to solve the wage problem, I'm just giving you my two pennies!

 

[The Z]

The system stinks. All staff should receive a sufficient base wage independent of tips.

I tip. I'm just saying that, in my opinion and understanding, a "required tip" is not a tip. It is a surcharge and I believe it should be indicated as a wage supplementation surcharge, as 'tacky' as it seems. It is the reality of the situation.

 

[corazon]

Thanks GB, Andy M and DampCharcoal! I wish all my customers were like you guys!

3These public service jobs are just awful, aren't they? My husband is a EMT/Firefighter and he probably hears more complaints than anyone. He was telling me that yesterday this guy got really angry with them because they wouldn't take him to the hospital, but there was no emergency with him. What would happen if while they were taking this man to the hospital there was a real emergency. Someone else could be dying while this guy is being taken to the hospital for leg pain but my husband is unable to go to the dying person because of it so they call for another ambulance who is farther away and may not get there in time...

My mom is a nurse in the ER, where people don't realize it is not first come, first serve! It is the severity of the case that matters. But as GB said, it doesn't affect their income.

As for me, I can't wait until I don't have to wait tables anymore. I don't see that day coming very soon but hopefully in a few years I can say goodbye to all those chumps who decided to stiff me for no reason.