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Old 06-28-2008, 06:05 PM   #2961
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Mav, If my DH said all that to me I would leave in that instant and come back later to get my stuff and then some. Those kind of words come from a hateful black heart People don't change unless they want to. Remember what they always say to us girls you can't change a man. Well the same gos for a women. There are too many people in this world that wait for years for the other to change but they don't and so they stay unhappy for the rest of their lives. I'm sorry but she is mean, mean, mean and selfish. My mother was the same so it came to a point I decided to have no more contact with her ever again after 30 odd years of dealing with her narcissistic personality. Which dos not mean that person is in love with themselves but rather that they don't give a crap about anybody else all they care about is their feelings and needs and blame everyone else for not having the life that they wanted which is why they say and do the most cruel things to those close to them. I am so much better off and I'm really happy now.I'm saying you will never make her happy and neither will anybody else because it's never good enough. I still remember a post you made a while back that she said she wished for your early demise. So you can keep trying or you can make some major changes and get out and make your self happy rather than feel like the way you do. Of course it's up to you. But I believe you are the one in control of your life and how happy you can be. Believe me I spent many years on the wrong guys hoping they would change etc. Only took me about 40 years to figure out it doesn't work and to not ignore the red flags but to take it as it is and cut my losses.
Your health is at stake as well. The nastier she gets the nastier she will become as she figures out you will just put up with it.
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Old 06-28-2008, 06:38 PM   #2962
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Nothing hurts worse than deception.. and when you're dealing with someone, who, after years of marriage and 3 kids, (& how many lies/infidelities?) says they're "not sure" what they want... ???

Big. Red. Flag.

I will not pass judgment on your wife, but I will offer this: Please look out for number one here - you FIRST - it's kind of like on the airplane safety card: put the oxygen mask on your face FIRST so you can effectively help everyone else (your children)...

DO NOT SETTLE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS "SETTLING" FOR YOU.... your kids will know the difference, and so will your heart!

- For what it's worth, as I do not know you, and technically this IS unsolicited advice - but wanted to send what I hope is some support for you in this difficult time... you are young - 37 is young! You have time to start over, if you want to... believe it, and it will be so!

Blessings to you and yours....
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Old 06-28-2008, 07:27 PM   #2963
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I gotta figure out how to change that.... I am 35 the birth year is suppose to be 1972 but instead I clicked 1970. Not that it matters, just realized it.

Thanks everyone for your support and the advice. She has agreed to more counseling and even some personal therapy of her own. For now I gotta just think about this some more, and see what the counseling and therapy bring once we/she starts it.
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Old 06-28-2008, 10:42 PM   #2964
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goodness, I was graduating from high school in 1972------shared my yearbook with my daughter-in-law last night and she couldn't believe the long hair and mini skirts.........anyway lots of good advice here, Mav........up to you to decide what you're going to do........stop being a doormat and show her the door...at least for a while........and when she decides to be responsible again and stop acting the way she is and I just know that you're going to be the one to possibly end up taking care of your children invite her back in if you still want her but I'm not kidding you there are so many nice women out there looking for guys like you in your age group...you really don't need to just hang on to her unless you want to.......I am so reminded of the 1800's book Of Human Bondage by Thackeray.......look it up and see if I'm off the mark..........I just buzzed over his 3 pages of a description of a landscape. which ran throughout the book--sorry I'm ADD in that respect......boring......but what the book's theme was basically a poor guy with a club foot being abused by a woman..........and he still asked for more because he was afraid to let her go........it was a heart-rending story of a read but in the end he does find someone who really cares for the wonderful qualities he possesses........
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Old 06-29-2008, 11:25 PM   #2965
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just some random thoughts, mav. you need a wake up call.

a woman who does and says crappy things to you and then says the reason she can't be honest with you because of some fault of yours is an emotional bully, and is **** up in some serious, deep ways. counseling for her is a start, but she's at the bottom of mount everest. don't get your hopes up.

a man who is kind, caring, and gentle is known as a gentleman, in my book. never think that you have to be a jerk to get respect. you don't want respect from people for that reason (unless it's for a good cause or it's funny ). again, to reinforce my first point, women who want to respect "bad guys" are really just immature if they're young, but at 35 it's just **** up.

playing amature psychoanalyst: i'd say somewhere in the twists and folds of their minds, a good percentage of women say they like bad guys. not the kind who like leather wearing, scruffy biker dudes (that i think you're thinking about), but guys who carry a certain suaveness about them, then treat the women who swoon over them like crap. AND they eat it up.
what she really is doing is punishing herself, some dimented way, for not having her life go the way she wanted in her dreams. she thinks it's some kind of failure on her part, and being in a relationship with a guy who turns them on but makes them cry somehow fulfills some very large, very dark corner of her psyche.
a cutter should understand that. btw, that's equally **** up. i was completely with you, except for that.

ok, so here's the wake up call. YOU HAVE FREAKIN KIDS!!!!!!

they should be the focal point of anything the two of you selfish **** are thinking about. that's what you should be discussing. their mental and emotional beings, not yours. is it better you two figure this out together, or apart? sacrifice is the cornerstone of parenthood, so you'd both better get on the ball and retrain your efforts.
if it's better for them that you should stay together, the BOTH of you should be working on that. boo hoo if neither of you got or ever get what you wanted. no one ever does.
we all rationalize our lives, and hopefully it's easy to see the good over the bad. children are the good; period. go from there.
but if it's better you two split, then get to it. get a lawyer, and work out the finances. but be ever mindful of how to make it as painless as possible for your kids.


i'll apologize right now if you or anyone thinks that this was mean spirited. it was not meant that way. it's just that there kids involved in this equation, which makes the other parts negligible. remember, sacrifice is the operative word here.
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Old 06-30-2008, 12:29 AM   #2966
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just some random thoughts, mav. you need a wake up call.

a woman who does and says crappy things to you and then says the reason she can't be honest with you because of some fault of yours is an emotional bully, and is **** up in some serious, deep ways. counseling for her is a start, but she's at the bottom of mount everest. don't get your hopes up.

a man who is kind, caring, and gentle is known as a gentleman, in my book. never think that you have to be a jerk to get respect. you don't want respect from people for that reason (unless it's for a good cause or it's funny ). again, to reinforce my first point, women who want to respect "bad guys" are really just immature if they're young, but at 35 it's just **** up.

playing amature psychoanalyst: i'd say somewhere in the twists and folds of their minds, a good percentage of women say they like bad guys. not the kind who like leather wearing, scruffy biker dudes (that i think you're thinking about), but guys who carry a certain suaveness about them, then treat the women who swoon over them like crap. AND they eat it up.
what she really is doing is punishing herself, some dimented way, for not having her life go the way she wanted in her dreams. she thinks it's some kind of failure on her part, and being in a relationship with a guy who turns them on but makes them cry somehow fulfills some very large, very dark corner of her psyche.
a cutter should understand that. btw, that's equally **** up. i was completely with you, except for that.

ok, so here's the wake up call. YOU HAVE FREAKIN KIDS!!!!!!

they should be the focal point of anything the two of you selfish **** are thinking about. that's what you should be discussing. their mental and emotional beings, not yours. is it better you two figure this out together, or apart? sacrifice is the cornerstone of parenthood, so you'd both better get on the ball and retrain your efforts.
if it's better for them that you should stay together, the BOTH of you should be working on that. boo hoo if neither of you got or ever get what you wanted. no one ever does.
we all rationalize our lives, and hopefully it's easy to see the good over the bad. children are the good; period. go from there.
but if it's better you two split, then get to it. get a lawyer, and work out the finances. but be ever mindful of how to make it as painless as possible for your kids.


i'll apologize right now if you or anyone thinks that this was mean spirited. it was not meant that way.
bucky you are absolutely right on. have wanted to say some of the things you did.

kids count and need stability. they don't have that right now. so the adults need to get their act together and put kids first. i do not think you are mean spirited, sometimes things just need to be said.

babe
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Old 06-30-2008, 07:24 AM   #2967
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Mav- so sorry to hear that your going through all this please put your kids first,my kids are 16 and 19 and are now asking me why I am still married to their father, saying it would have been hard but probably better.
Now my vent, I posted a week and a half ago that my DD crashed her blazer, since it happened hubby and I have been doing everything possible to get her a vehical. We found one last thurs. she put a deposit on it and on Friday I took my whole day to check on financing and insurance (she was working) anyway Sat. she came home from work at 2:30 and hubby told her to call the dealer and let him know we were still waiting to hear from the bank. We were working in the yard. She came out around 4:30-5:00 and asked where the number was. Of course I got mad because she didn't do it at 2:30 and asked her why she said she forgot. I asked her how she could forget from the porch to the house and that it wasn't an excuse. I then started back outside and heard her say something. I turned and said what? She says and I quote "you're annoying me". I flipped out and told her I would write down what she has to do to finalize the deal and if she didn't get it done, she would be walking.
I think I'm more hurt then mad, I'm doing everything possible to help her. This isn't the first time she's done or said something like this. I guess I'm just going to have to use tough love on her and not make her life as easy as I have.
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Old 06-30-2008, 07:47 AM   #2968
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Originally Posted by buckytom View Post
just some random thoughts, mav. you need a wake up call.

a woman who does and says crappy things to you and then says the reason she can't be honest with you because of some fault of yours is an emotional bully, and is **** up in some serious, deep ways. counseling for her is a start, but she's at the bottom of mount everest. don't get your hopes up.

a man who is kind, caring, and gentle is known as a gentleman, in my book. never think that you have to be a jerk to get respect. you don't want respect from people for that reason (unless it's for a good cause or it's funny ). again, to reinforce my first point, women who want to respect "bad guys" are really just immature if they're young, but at 35 it's just **** up.

playing amature psychoanalyst: i'd say somewhere in the twists and folds of their minds, a good percentage of women say they like bad guys. not the kind who like leather wearing, scruffy biker dudes (that i think you're thinking about), but guys who carry a certain suaveness about them, then treat the women who swoon over them like crap. AND they eat it up.
what she really is doing is punishing herself, some dimented way, for not having her life go the way she wanted in her dreams. she thinks it's some kind of failure on her part, and being in a relationship with a guy who turns them on but makes them cry somehow fulfills some very large, very dark corner of her psyche.
a cutter should understand that. btw, that's equally **** up. i was completely with you, except for that.

ok, so here's the wake up call. YOU HAVE FREAKIN KIDS!!!!!!

they should be the focal point of anything the two of you selfish **** are thinking about. that's what you should be discussing. their mental and emotional beings, not yours. is it better you two figure this out together, or apart? sacrifice is the cornerstone of parenthood, so you'd both better get on the ball and retrain your efforts.
if it's better for them that you should stay together, the BOTH of you should be working on that. boo hoo if neither of you got or ever get what you wanted. no one ever does.
we all rationalize our lives, and hopefully it's easy to see the good over the bad. children are the good; period. go from there.
but if it's better you two split, then get to it. get a lawyer, and work out the finances. but be ever mindful of how to make it as painless as possible for your kids.


i'll apologize right now if you or anyone thinks that this was mean spirited. it was not meant that way. it's just that there kids involved in this equation, which makes the other parts negligible. remember, sacrifice is the operative word here.
BRAVO, BT for telling it like it is. You are just giving Mav some tough love and said some things I was afraid to say. I don't believe for a minute counseling is going to help this situation. A waste of money to yet again to try to change someone that can't be changed. As far as the kids my concern is that as they watch and feel whats going on this is how they will end up because they won't know anything else. If things don't change the kids will grow up to be just as dysfunctional.
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Old 06-30-2008, 02:00 PM   #2969
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Amen !!!
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Old 06-30-2008, 02:14 PM   #2970
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Mav- so sorry to hear that your going through all this please put your kids first,my kids are 16 and 19 and are now asking me why I am still married to their father, saying it would have been hard but probably better.
Now my vent, I posted a week and a half ago that my DD crashed her blazer, since it happened hubby and I have been doing everything possible to get her a vehical. We found one last thurs. she put a deposit on it and on Friday I took my whole day to check on financing and insurance (she was working) anyway Sat. she came home from work at 2:30 and hubby told her to call the dealer and let him know we were still waiting to hear from the bank. We were working in the yard. She came out around 4:30-5:00 and asked where the number was. Of course I got mad because she didn't do it at 2:30 and asked her why she said she forgot. I asked her how she could forget from the porch to the house and that it wasn't an excuse. I then started back outside and heard her say something. I turned and said what? She says and I quote "you're annoying me". I flipped out and told her I would write down what she has to do to finalize the deal and if she didn't get it done, she would be walking.
I think I'm more hurt then mad, I'm doing everything possible to help her. This isn't the first time she's done or said something like this. I guess I'm just going to have to use tough love on her and not make her life as easy as I have.
Which DD is it? 16 year olds are just plain flaky sometimes. It's like they are on a different planet from one minute to the next. One day, they can make you so proud you could burst because of their maturity and wisdom. Then the next day, you wonder who this kid is and how she manages to walk and chew gum at the same time. Plus, at 16 and 19, they are part adult and part kid and when it comes to dealing with their parents, they have a hard time not falling back on the kid behavior - thinking mom and dad should take care of everything for them. Sorry she hurt your feelings but I think you handled it right - tell her what she needs to do and spell out the consequences if she doesn't.
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Old 06-30-2008, 02:21 PM   #2971
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I don't see where I am being a selfish B****rd, I have always put my kids first and sacrificed a lot for them. They have no idea she cheated or that she has said these things to me. I leave them out of as much as possible and shelter them from as much of it as possible.
Their biggest complaint is they feel their mom puts her business and clients before them, other than that they are happy and well adjusted (this is according to DCFS which I brought in in 04). Their teachers like them, their friends like them, even the principle likes Mitch and she is a crusty lady that doesn't seem to like anyone.
There is obviously going to be counseling needed with them concerning their mother and things she has done in the past, but my concern right now is what is best for them now.
Does this signal a return to her old ways and therefore should I leave before it gets worse and begins to effect the kids again? Or is this just something that remains between us and we co-habitate while raising the kids? Is that even possible without them picking up on it?
Katie says she is OK with a divorce, but deep down does not want one. Mitch thinks his mother puts her clients before him, but does not want a divorce either. I can live with never having someone that loves me the way I love them, but I won't sacrifice the kids to get what I want.
I wanted a career, I gave that up to be a stay at home dad with a part time job because she couldn't be a mother let alone a stay at home mom. I cut my parents out of my life because they were being toxic and involving the kids in their problems. Same for her parents, her sister, my brother. We needed more money but I refused to go full time and neglect the kids for the sake of more money. It is nice buying them cool toys and memberships to zoos and museums and arboretums but I have always made sure it was never at the cost of the most important thing: Time with the kids.
This is between me and her, and that is where I am keeping it. I was caught off guard by what she said, and had no one to talk to so I let it out in here. But I am not letting the kids in on it, and my final decision will be based on what is best for them.
I am sorry I vented in here, my apologies. I will just keep things like this between my therapist and myself from now on out. It obviously was not an appropriate topic to bring into a cooking forum, so lets just drop it and move on as I am sure there are plenty of others that need to vent.
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Old 06-30-2008, 03:20 PM   #2972
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Originally Posted by Maverick2272 View Post
I don't see where I am being a selfish B****rd, I have always put my kids first and sacrificed a lot for them. They have no idea she cheated or that she has said these things to me. I leave them out of as much as possible and shelter them from as much of it as possible.
Their biggest complaint is they feel their mom puts her business and clients before them, other than that they are happy and well adjusted (this is according to DCFS which I brought in in 04). Their teachers like them, their friends like them, even the principle likes Mitch and she is a crusty lady that doesn't seem to like anyone.
There is obviously going to be counseling needed with them concerning their mother and things she has done in the past, but my concern right now is what is best for them now.
Does this signal a return to her old ways and therefore should I leave before it gets worse and begins to effect the kids again? Or is this just something that remains between us and we co-habituate while raising the kids? Is that even possible without them picking up on it?
Katie says she is OK with a divorce, but deep down does not want one. Mitch thinks his mother puts her clients before him, but does not want a divorce either. I can live with never having someone that loves me the way I love them, but I won't sacrifice the kids to get what I want.
I wanted a career, I gave that up to be a stay at home dad with a part time job because she couldn't be a mother let alone a stay at home mom. I cut my parents out of my life because they were being toxic and involving the kids in their problems. Same for her parents, her sister, my brother. We needed more money but I refused to go full time and neglect the kids for the sake of more money. It is nice buying them cool toys and memberships to zoos and museums and arboretums but I have always made sure it was never at the cost of the most important thing: Time with the kids.
This is between me and her, and that is where I am keeping it. I was caught off guard by what she said, and had no one to talk to so I let it out in here. But I am not letting the kids in on it, and my final decision will be based on what is best for them.
I am sorry I vented in here, my apologies. I will just keep things like this between my therapist and myself from now on out. It obviously was not an appropriate topic to bring into a cooking forum, so lets just drop it and move on as I am sure there are plenty of others that need to vent.
you would be surprised how much your kids know . they have eyes, ears and can feel the tension.

i think for their benefit and yours, you need to bail. you might be surprised how some of your complaints about health , will just go away. toxic is the right word, but applies to you personally as well. both u and kids deserve more from life, than just cohabiting.

babe
ps, no one minds if you vent but are entitled to their opinion when you do.

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Old 06-30-2008, 03:34 PM   #2973
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Mav, I don't think anybody is suggesting you are a bad parent or hashing all of this out in front of your kids. If people thought that, they wouldn't bother replying because no one would think it would do any good.

Sometimes it takes a friend or friends to help you see the forest, not just the trees. I promise your kids are suffering as much as you are but they will never tell you. I know this from experience. And kids always manage to find a way to make everything their fault. You can't change your wife and you can't make her get her crap together, even for the sake of the kids. But you can be the parent who says enough is enough and insists on immediate changes or moves on for the kids' sake.

I hope you don't choose to take offense at this because, like BT, Babe and JP, I don't mean it in an offensive way. I'm assuming you wanted some additional input on the situation and that's why you posted.
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Old 06-30-2008, 04:04 PM   #2974
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you would be surprised how much your kids know . they have eyes, ears and can feel the tension.

i think for their benefit and yours, you need to bail. you might be surprised how some of your complaints about health , will just go away. toxic is the right word, but applies to you personally as well. both u and kids deserve more from life, that just cohabiting.

babe
ps, no one minds if you vent but are entitled to their opinion when you do.

I hafto agree kids know a lot more than you think. I don't think you are a selfish ******* But I can see how hard it is for you , you and dw have lived with all this stuff before you even got together so it's harder so see what we here can see. Just like me it's hard to realize this is not the way to live. I went to co-dependant meetings but got tired of them because all they were is people sitting around complaining about their lives. Most of us have been through something like this at one time or another. I did not have to post about my mother it's not something I care to bring up. I did because I also had feelings of obligation to her and others etc. I think that maybe you should read all your posts again but read them as if it was not from you but that they were from someone else. Then think about what you would say to that person. Really read them again as it was from someone else and you will see how quickly it all adds up. If your therapist/counselor doesn't teach you why you put up with this then you will never get! I used to read all kinds of books on codependency and honestly never got much out of them most of them are a bunch of crap. Then I found this book and it saved my life it's simple to understand and it's a short read. If you do separate you need to learn how not to get in the same situation again with the same kind of person.
You can get this book on Ebay for as little as $2.00 it's called Love Is A Choice. I really recommend getting it it will open up your eyes and teach you why you choose to stay like this.
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Old 06-30-2008, 04:37 PM   #2975
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Started on new meds Saturday morning. Told me to take the Dyazide alone for a week, just to see if it worked for all problems without the Beta blockers, wonderful, I'm ready to try it!! Yesterday, started having chest pains, same as I got when I tried stopping Atenolol, like a pulled muscle. Painful, but, not crushing. Okay, so, I go ahead and take a Coreg last night cause I didn't get the Verapamil filled, in case the Dyazide worked alone. This morning, dizzy and vomiting, headache, bp went up again and chest pains enough I came home, I NEVER come home from work. Called Dr. office. Was told to just stop all and use the Coreg again. THAT DIDN'T WORK BEFORE, WHY IS IT ALL OF A SUDDEN GONNA START NOW!! I am angry and upset that this what I have to settle for!
My opinion, my Verapimil worked wonderfully with palps, never had one while on it or pain, the coreg was good with bp, but, not the palps or chest pain, Dyazide was good for fluid but nothing else.
I think I am going to begin with the Verapmil and the Dyazide like he wanted me to do in a week if the Dyazide didn't work. I think this morning the sickness came from the chest pain from not having beta blocker, then the bp came from pain, headache came from bp and the dizziness came from the headache. That is my opinion and that is what the dr said to do after a week anyway, so, I'm gonna try it and see for myself. If it doesn' work, then, I will stop and call them again.
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Old 06-30-2008, 05:27 PM   #2976
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Originally Posted by Maverick2272 View Post
I don't see where I am being a selfish B****rd, I have always put my kids first and sacrificed a lot for them. They have no idea she cheated or that she has said these things to me. I leave them out of as much as possible and shelter them from as much of it as possible.
Their biggest complaint is they feel their mom puts her business and clients before them, other than that they are happy and well adjusted (this is according to DCFS which I brought in in 04). Their teachers like them, their friends like them, even the principle likes Mitch and she is a crusty lady that doesn't seem to like anyone.
There is obviously going to be counseling needed with them concerning their mother and things she has done in the past, but my concern right now is what is best for them now.
Does this signal a return to her old ways and therefore should I leave before it gets worse and begins to effect the kids again? Or is this just something that remains between us and we co-habitate while raising the kids? Is that even possible without them picking up on it?
Katie says she is OK with a divorce, but deep down does not want one. Mitch thinks his mother puts her clients before him, but does not want a divorce either. I can live with never having someone that loves me the way I love them, but I won't sacrifice the kids to get what I want.
I wanted a career, I gave that up to be a stay at home dad with a part time job because she couldn't be a mother let alone a stay at home mom. I cut my parents out of my life because they were being toxic and involving the kids in their problems. Same for her parents, her sister, my brother. We needed more money but I refused to go full time and neglect the kids for the sake of more money. It is nice buying them cool toys and memberships to zoos and museums and arboretums but I have always made sure it was never at the cost of the most important thing: Time with the kids.
This is between me and her, and that is where I am keeping it. I was caught off guard by what she said, and had no one to talk to so I let it out in here. But I am not letting the kids in on it, and my final decision will be based on what is best for them.
I am sorry I vented in here, my apologies. I will just keep things like this between my therapist and myself from now on out. It obviously was not an appropriate topic to bring into a cooking forum, so lets just drop it and move on as I am sure there are plenty of others that need to vent.
Mav,

Please don't think anyone is picking on you. Real friends will tell you the truth, not what they think you want to hear.

As far as it being between you and her, I think you are wrong there. If you are asking the kids about whether or not they would approve of a divorce, they are very much involved and they know it goes much deeper that just the time she spends at work.

Although she may not be doing it yet, there may be one thing you might want to keep in mind, when she tires of using you for a doormat or gets to a point where that isn't enough, who do you think she is going to start picking on next?

You're best bet is to start thinking with your head instead of your heart. Why don't you try a seperation and see if she gets the much needed help she needs and changes. That way it will be easier on the kids too. If you do decide to make it permanent, the kids will have adjusted.

Just a thought!
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Old 06-30-2008, 06:33 PM   #2977
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Wink sewing challenged

My sympathies on bobbin roulette .My sewing machine hates me and I know it. Once in a while it lets me do something without a argument
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Old 06-30-2008, 06:56 PM   #2978
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My sympathies on bobbin roulette .My sewing machine hates me and I know it. Once in a while it lets me do something without a argument
is it just me ? or maybe you posted this in wrong place?

babe
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Old 06-30-2008, 06:58 PM   #2979
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is it just me ? or maybe you posted this in wrong place?

babe
I wondered too, Babe, but then I thought how it ruins my day when my sewing machines misbehave and it makes me want to vent, too. I dunno, but the OP has my sympathies!
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Old 06-30-2008, 07:10 PM   #2980
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I had clicked to reply to a thread about venting that started out with a complaint about bobbins,however I think this changed by the time I replied.
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