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Old 07-22-2009, 05:31 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by freefallin1309 View Post
... who do I submit is the original who gets the credit?...

There is no benefit to giving credit to the owner of a copyrighted recipe. On the contrary, it simply is evidence that you knowingly violated the copyright laws.

Simple and straight forward, if the same recipe appears on a site that has copyright protection, don't post it.
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Old 07-22-2009, 05:36 PM   #22
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I didn't know the recipe was everywhere else, I found it on a 3x5 card in our recipe box.
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Old 07-22-2009, 06:21 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by freefallin1309 View Post
I didn't know the recipe was everywhere else, I found it on a 3x5 card in our recipe box.
give up!! you can't win against the law!! anyone can copy anything to an index card at anytime and claim it is their own. and unless you have a notory there to witness and certify the fact of you writing an original recipe text you CAN'T win the agrugment of copyright infringement if it can be found in print ANYWHERE else!! sorry to say it is a FACT!! and ignorance isn't accepted by the law.

so sorry if this makes you mad but i am not the enemy.
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Old 07-22-2009, 06:34 PM   #24
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I really don't want this to be an argument...more a learning experience about what is and is not allowed in regards to copyright issues. I'm sure we would be allowed to remove the recipe before any lawsuits were filed, but, who is to say? The owner of this site AND the poster are liable. That's just the simple truth. Lawsuits have been won upwards of six figures. As Admins and Mods looking out for copyright issues is part of our job.

If anyone is ever in doubt on a recipe we will be more than happy to view it via PM and determine if it's a copyrighted recipe. As a poster, a simple Internet search can be made.

Copyright laws are VERY specific and not to be messed with. People assume it's Discuss Cooking with the issues...not so.
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Old 07-22-2009, 07:55 PM   #25
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Everything Kitchenelf has said holds true. And I don't want anyone to take it lightly, but at the same time I don't want it to be such a pain that it stops people from posting a recipe they want to share. Here is how I see it. If you knowingly post a recipe from another website then that is not OK, but posting a link to that recipe is perfectly acceptable. If you have a recipe in your collection that you got 25 years ago that was your grandmothers and you have no idea where it originally came from then it is pretty safe to say that there will not be an issue if you post it as you are doing it in good faith that you are not taking it from anyone as far as you know. Now in a court that would not be a defense, but I think we need to use common sense when it comes to things like this.

If it is obviously copyrighted then you have three choices.
1. Don't post it.
2. Post a link to it from another website.
3. Change the wording of the method substantially.

The problem with option 3 is that there is no measure for "substantially". If it ever went to court it would be a judgment call by whomever is adjudicating the case. If you change it so it does not resemble the original at all then it should be fine. Changing a word or two in each sentence and re-ordering a few words probably would not cut it.
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Old 07-22-2009, 08:32 PM   #26
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Old 07-22-2009, 08:55 PM   #27
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Thanks for trying to lighten the atmosphere msmofet. It is something we all need to be aware of as fines can be extremely hefty, 6 figures nasty to both the poster and the site.
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Old 07-22-2009, 09:00 PM   #28
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Thanks for trying to lighten the atmosphere msmofet. It is something we all need to be aware of as fines can be extremely hefty, 6 figures nasty to both the poster and the site.
you're welcome!!
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:32 PM   #29
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I don't think we (anyone) can get a handle on art. The music industry is plagued with the same issue.

Anyone can file a lawsuit over anything they choose (you stepped in front of me at the wiener stand).

Keep in mind that to file a suit costs money. The US does provide public attorneys, but these attorneys do not usually have the experience private attorneys do and their case loads are often overloaded (note a problem in our legal system - you have to have money to enforce your rights).

However, in order for a suit to be heard, the plaintiff must prove either a)civil rights infringed upon or b) damages incurred.

Most of the time, suits are all about the damages. And in the case of recipes, damages would be the way to go.

The plaintiff has to prove they have suffered damages. This could be reputation, financial, physical and in some cases emotional.

Given the competition (as I perceive it) amongst chefs, it would be in poor form (damages) for them to attack a small time chef over a recipe posted on a forum.

Given the competition and difficulty in creating a successful restaurant (as I perceive it) it would be in poor form for a business owner to attack a potential customer.

In a nutshell, unless you are posting recipes directly out of a newly published cookbook, posting "secret" recipes from a restaurant, bashing another chef in any way, claiming other's recipes as your own - you are probably in the clear.

Freedom of speech covers a lot on forums, we also all have the freedom to our opinion - this is mostly obvious in our media. Also the nature of recipes - ingredients cannot be copywrited - thank goodness, could you imagine if a person were never allowed to use garlic again? Or, we had to call garlic by another name?

Of course, it should go without saying that anything can happen. On an internet forum such as this, anyone can be on here, anyone can get mad and anyone can try.

Keeping in mind that even a frivilous lawsuit costs money (at least in the US).

But people actually have to prove their damages. This forum site is more at risk than any poster. Albeit heavily protected by free speech.

Myself, I think of good karma and good will: Give credit to those whom you have learned from, take pride in what you have learned, never badmouth your fellow enthusiast and share your knowledge.

Just my thoughts...interesting thread.
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Old 07-23-2009, 12:05 AM   #30
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Jeni - we're not talking about freedom of speech here and we're not talking about ingredients. The copyright laws are very clear. Ingredients they could care less about. But if a METHOD of a recipe is verbatim to a copyrighted recipe BINGO - that's a copyright issue.

Quote:
Given the competition (as I perceive it) amongst chefs, it would be in poor form (damages) for them to attack a small time chef over a recipe posted on a forum.
If said chef is making money on a cookbook he has written, or "said" magazine is selling their product because of said recipes posted in it, and his/her/their recipe is now copied and pasted for all to see there ARE damages involved. Plain and simple...couldn't be more clear. The damage would be people would no longer have to buy that cookbook/magazine because the recipe/s is/are now on the Internet for all to see FREE...and Google is the key.

We would likely be asked to remove the recipe first...which we obviously would. We don't even want that to happen.

Quote:
This forum site is more at risk than any poster. Albeit heavily protected by free speech
.

Which is why we have a fairly heavy hand when it comes to copyrighted material. The poster is most definitely involved also. Free speech has nothing to do with U.S. copyright laws.

This topic comes up every couple years. In the end the U.S. Copyright Office wins...every time. The outcome of these threads never changes. Giving credit as to where a recipe comes from doesn't matter. Ingredients cannot be copyrighted. The instructions on how to cook the recipe is where copyright laws come into play. THAT will not change. Free speech will not help that issue.
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:00 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Jeni78 View Post

In a nutshell, unless you are posting recipes directly out of a newly published cookbook, posting "secret" recipes from a restaurant, bashing another chef in any way, claiming other's recipes as your own - you are probably in the clear.
This is a very dangerous statement to make. Websites like our have been sued and have lost. Damages can be in the 6 figure range. I doubt anyone here would want to take the chance of loosing a $100,000 lawsuit to post a recipe that they could have just posted a link to.

As for giving credit, that is an excellent way to instantly lose the lawsuit. When you give credit you are basically saying the recipe is not yours and this is who you took it from. That is all a judge would need to see to give you the loss.
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:39 AM   #32
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I stand corrected. Copyright is a whole other can of worms.

Quote:
As for giving credit, that is an excellent way to instantly lose the lawsuit. When you give credit you are basically saying the recipe is not yours and this is who you took it from. That is all a judge would need to see to give you the loss.
What a world where this is true.
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:46 AM   #33
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i am sorry to but this thread is getting ridiculous!!

the admins HAVE stated the LAW over and over. they DIDN'T make the law to cause people problems they only follow it!!

badgering or arguing with this sites admin WON'T change the LAW!! they just don't have that power!! so reread what they have posted as the law as many times as it takes to sink in and lets move on!!

so much food to cook, to little time to be wasting on this nonsense!!
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:59 AM   #34
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I was not badgering or trying to argue with the site's admins...or anyone else for that matter.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:02 AM   #35
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[quote=Jeni78;838400]I stand corrected. Copyright is a whole other can of worms.

Quote:
As for giving credit, that is an excellent way to instantly lose the lawsuit. When you give credit you are basically saying the recipe is not yours and this is who you took it from. That is all a judge would need to see to give you the loss./QUOTE]

What a world where this is true.
Jeni, you see this as a bad thing but it's about the money, not anything else.

A chef or whomever works hard to develop a recipe. It's prepared many times with changes in ingredients and/or process so it's exactly what that person wants. Repeat that process a hundred times and there is enough material for a cookbook. Finally, a chance to get some money for all the hard work.

But wait! Someone is putting all the recipes on the internet for free so no one is buying the cookbook. The author and publisher are not looking for credit, they are trying to sell books to make money. It's how they pay the bills.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:03 AM   #36
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I don't feel badgered, nor do the others I think. Thanks for the defense though. This thread is actually very informative and I think a lot of people might get some clarity from it.

Keep in mind too everyone that this is not just a US forum. This is an INTERNATIONAL forum. Most folks are familiar with the law in the US, but other countries might have other laws as well. For the safety of all our members and our owner we are trying to keep things simple and safe.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:05 AM   #37
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Jeni - I didn't think you were trying to argue with us at all, nor did GB. This is a discussion on copyright laws that will hopefully answer questions for other people too. It's so often misinterpreted. This isn't about "us" anyway...it's about some laws we have no control over. We simply have to follow them.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:06 AM   #38
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Ooo, Jeni, I meant to mention that I understand you were initially talking about artistic ideas and someone basically stealing ideas at first right? And now you understand we are talking about copyright only?It really IS a different kettle of fish entirely isn't it?
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:11 AM   #39
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Nope I did not see it as arguing. This is the single most confusing thing on the site. The mods and admins have spend months and months discussing this with a lawyer and only understand it as well as we do, wich is just the basics. Hopefully this thread helps clear some things up.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:13 AM   #40
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just to clear things up. my comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular it was a general statement. sort of like the use of "you" as a PLURAL to include a large amount of people!!

it wasn't meant for any ONE person. and didn't want to hurt anyones feelings. but some of the posts do sound like arguing to me.

ok i understand the rules (i sincerely hope i do or i will reread them till i do!!) so now i will unsubscribe from this thread and butt out.
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