How to make apple juice, cider, vinegar?

[sam111]

I am wondering about how one can make homemade apple products

Mainly

I know I can juice apple to make apple juice + other ingrediants optional like sugar ,...etc

I am alittle confused about the difference between apple cider , apple juice, and hard apple cider , apple cider vinegar.

Currently from what I am reading is that apple cider is raw apple juice that has not undergone filtration to remove coarse particles of pulp or sediment, like apple juice has. ( analogy equivalent to orange juice with pulp and without )

Obviously hard apple cider is the alcohal version of apple cider/juice.

Question is hard apple cider created from just adding a packet of active yeast and leting it react for a few days to produce the alcohal + CO2 or is there more to it?

Last Question is apple cider vinegar (or in general any vinegar made from an alcohal product) Do you add just another yeast packet or have it sit longer...
I just don't get the fine line of when alcohal turns into vinegar or stays alcohal...
I mean I see alot of alcohal products last a long time but do they eventually all turn into vinegar ?
Basically I am trying to understand what/how one could create the different products homemade.
(leaving off the warning of the 4%-7% acid for vinegar to be human consumed... think of it as a cleaning agent )

 

[sam111]

I guess what is the difference in the fermentation process to create alcohal (for beer , wine,..etc) as opposed to acetic acid (for vinegar)

Is it a different enzyme used other then yeast or something ?

 

[Steve Kroll]

alcohol is made when yeast consume sugar and metabolize it as alcohol. There is usually only one type of fermentation involved. I say "usually" because sometimes wine is also put through a malolactic fermentation, in which lactic acid bacteria consume harsh malic acid and metabolize it as softer lactic acid. And sometimes beer production also involves a secondary fermentation using a special yeast called brettanomyces.

Vinegar production always involves at least two fermentations. Using cider vinegar as an example, in the first stage apple juice is converted to cider through alcoholic fermentation (just like when making wine and beer). The second stage is when a type of bacteria known as acetobacter converts the alcohol to acetic acid.

The bottom line is that all fermentation can be thought of as controlled spoilage. By "pre-spoiling" certain foods, whether it be milk, vegetables, or fruit juices, we can create other foods that have a longer shelf life.

 

[sam111]

ok but is it possible for me to create vineger from my alcoholic I have at home?
Because I don't quiet get what stops the process so you get 4%or 7% acetic acid ?

And would wine left open eventually turn into a vineger?

 

[Steve Kroll]

Generally speaking, the acidity in vinegar is dependent on the amount of acidity in the fruit you are making it from. If you want cider vinegar with higher acidity, you use tart apples.

And yes, wine will eventually turn into vinegar if exposed to air. You can take a chance by just pouring some wine into a crock and covering it with a towel or cheesecloth for a couple of months. But personally, I would buy a starter culture (also known as "mother of vinegar") since it will help ensure you have the right mix of bacteria. The other option is to buy raw, unpasteurized vinegar from somewhere like Whole Foods and add some of that to your wine. Eden Foods makes raw Red Wine Vinegar that contains the mother.

Starter can be ordered from here.

Be forewarned. It's not the most appetizing looking thing in the world.

 

[taxlady]

If you don't use a starter on wine or cider when trying to make vinegar, it might make vinegar or it might just go off. I have read that at one time vinegar was more expensive than wine for that very reason. They didn't know about the starter.

 

[Steve Kroll]

I would definitely recommend buying a commercial mother culture the first time you make vinegar. After that, there's no need to ever purchase it again.

 

[sam111]

Ok, but my only question is looking into foods in general alot of foods/drinks
Are made by letting things dry up like raisens , or ferment like vinegar ...etc

What I am getting at is it seems humans can consume all types of parts of the plants , fruits ,vegtables ,...etc at an time in there life cycle

I guess I am trying to ask is when is a particular item stale or to bad to eat as opposed to an item that is naturally left out to go bad for consumption?

Seems like we eat almost any part of nature ... herbs,plants,veg,fruit,...etc at alot of different stages of there life and different parts of them.
So what constitutes when the food is not editble and why ?
For instance why do we have to preserve foods why aren't they like vinegar ? Most of them are exposed to the air in the same way

Cheese is another example
Flour is another example
Then you look at apples and apples go bad quickly (so can you eat stale apples since they are essentially going thru the process of turning into hard cider/or vinegar )

How can one know exactly weather a food is still editable for human consumption or totally spoiled or spoiling to the point of know nutritional value left (so no point in eating it)
Is it based on some half life chemical reaction and it has to do with a case by case bases... and how would one know if the new reaction doesn't have benifits to the body.

 

[taxlady]

Ok, but my only question is looking into foods in general alot of foods/drinks
Are made by letting things dry up like raisens , or ferment like vinegar ...etc

What I am getting at is it seems humans can consume all types of parts of the plants , fruits ,vegtables ,...etc at an time in there life cycle

I guess I am trying to ask is when is a particular item stale or to bad to eat as opposed to an item that is naturally left out to go bad for consumption?

Seems like we eat almost any part of nature ... herbs,plants,veg,fruit,...etc at alot of different stages of there life and different parts of them.
So what constitutes when the food is not editble and why ?
For instance why do we have to preserve foods why aren't they like vinegar is? Most of them are exposed to the air in the same way

We dry, salt, ferment, pickle, etc. to prevent the micro-organisms we don't want from growing on the food. Some micro-organisms are beneficial, some are benign, and others will make us sick. In my comment about making vinegar, I should have said that people didn't know about micro-organisms, so sometimes the wrong kind get into wine and just make it "off" rather than turning into vinegar.

Various preservation methods make the food an inhospitable environment for micro-organisms. Salt and sugar desiccate micro-organisms. Vinegar makes the pH of the food too acidic for them.

An example. Nice, soft bread goes mouldy after a few days. In Scandinavia they make "crisp breads", like Rye Crisp. They are too dry for the mould to grow, so dry is the preservation method.

 

[GotGarlic]

Ok, but my only question is looking into foods in general alot of foods/drinks
Are made by letting things dry up like raisens , or ferment like vinegar ...etc

What I am getting at is it seems humans can consume all types of parts of the plants , fruits ,vegtables ,...etc at an time in there life cycle

I guess I am trying to ask is when is a particular item stale or to bad to eat as opposed to an item that is naturally left out to go bad for consumption?

Seems like we eat almost any part of nature ... herbs,plants,veg,fruit,...etc at alot of different stages of there life and different parts of them.
So what constitutes when the food is not editble and why ?
For instance why do we have to preserve foods why aren't they like vinegar ? Most of them are exposed to the air in the same way

Cheese is another example
Flour is another example
Then you look at apples and apples go bad quickly (so can you eat stale apples since they are essentially going thru the process of turning into hard cider/or vinegar )

Foods "go bad" when dangerous fungi and bacteria reproduce on them in sufficient numbers to make someone sick or kill them. Bacteria need moisture to survive, so they can't survive in dry environments, like flour. Bacteria are also killed by acidic substances, like vinegar and lemon juice, so foods with those ingredients last longer than those without. Dried foods, like jerky, are usually dried quickly, so the bacteria don't have time to multiply to dangerous levels.

Bacteria can also be killed by irradiation, which prolongs the shelf life of produce, but not indefinitely, because there is still moisture present, and bacteria are all around us, on everything.

Here is a lot of good information on this topic:

Keep Food Safe! Food Safety Basics
Foodborne Illness: What Consumers Need to Know

 

[sam111]

Ok so then what about unpasturized foods like vinegar won't that be the equivalent of just making homemade vinegar from scratch by letting it ferment?

I mean I get unpasturized orange juice doesn't last long but what about vinegar (and how is homemade vinegar any different)?

 

[GotGarlic]

Sam, could you slow down a minute and think about what it is you want to ask? I don't really understand your question, especially with the explanations of vinegar and micro-organisms above.

 

[sam111]

what I was saying is unpasturized vinegar must go bad like unpasturized orange juice does.

Or another words making vinegar homemade (by just letting it sit out) would be the equivalent of making unpasturized vinegar.

Regular vinegar I assume is pasturized to make not spoil.

Or maybe I am mis-understanding why vinegar doesn't go bad and other things do ?

And even if it was the pasturization process that keeps it from not spoiling why does some items pasturized only prolong the shelf life not keep it indefinitely like vinegar (if that is the defining thing that preserves it along with the acid mixture)

 

[GotGarlic]

Unpasteurized vinegar does not go bad because of the high level of acid it contains. The acidity prevents unwanted bacteria from growing in it. This page describes it well, I think: http://foodreference.about.com/od/Ingredients_Basics/a/What-Is-Vinegar.htm

 

[sam111]

but then what is the difference between unpasterized vineger and just letting alcohol exposed to air for a really long time?

Won't the latter turn into semi-vineger but spoil as well over time.
What is different between the 2.

 

[PrincessFiona60]

That is a question that has plagued winemakers for years...sometimes it just happens. Don't know why, but a whole year is ruined because of some random reaction.

 

[Steve Kroll]

but then what is the difference between unpasterized vineger and just letting alcohol exposed to air for a really long time?

Won't the latter turn into semi-vineger but spoil as well over time.
What is different between the 2.

I'm not sure what you mean by "semi-vinegar", but both wine vinegar and wine will go bad - just not in the way that you think. Technically, vinegar doesn't spoil because it's already spoiled. And wine will "spoil" by turning into vinegar.

What eventually destroys both of these products is oxygen. Over time they will turn brown and the flavor will change. It's the same exact process that turns bananas and avocados brown.

 

[sam111]

Ok then more generally what things can we eat that are "spoiled" ?
And is exposer to air the only thing that makes things go bad ( say if everything was in a vaccum or C02 only chamber.
(For example if your fruits / veg where kept in a vaccum with no exposer to air or baterial in the air.... how much longer would they last ... as well as meats/fish products. )

 

[Steve Kroll]

What are the causes of Food Spoilage?