Define "savory"

[jpinmaryland]

I used to think this term meant everything that was not sweet, as in the term: sweet and savory. AFter reading through the Joy of Cooking now I am not so sure; again the book did not define this term but the context it used it in seemed to have a specific idea in mind and not just non-sweet.

Other people I think will say it means a sort of richness of flavor, sort of like the term "unami." Is that the general accepted definition of the term savory? I'd be interested in seeing what the members think this term means to them.

 

[GB]

Other people I think will say it means a sort of richness of flavor, sort of like the term "unami." Is that the general accepted definition of the term savory? I'd be interested in seeing what the members think this term means to them.

Yeah that is how I always thought it meant. Celery, for instance, would not be considered savory in my opinion, but a slice of cheddar would.

I am moving this to the Terms and Techniques forum

 

[Michael in FtW]

It depends ... generally sweet is something that includes sugar in the ingredients or is intended to make a sweet like a dessert - savory generally does not include sugar or is not intended for a sweet dish (although it MIGHT include some sugar to counteract the acidity of another ingredient - like in a tomato based pasta sauce), may include herbs or spices, or is intended to be used in a non-sweet application.

For example - you could use the same recipe to make a tart or pie crust (in which case it would be a sweet) or something like a Cornish Pasty (which would be a savory).

 

[jpinmaryland]

So if I Understand correctly, Michael opts for the non sweet definition and GB goes with the unami type of definition. DO I understand you two correctly?

Also what was the reason for the moving the thread? It did throw me off when I came back to the site and found it was not there. No big deal I found it easy enuf but I could see a newbie getting messed up. So what's the rationale?

 

[ironchef]

IMO, savory describes the richness in flavor, but not pertaining to any fruit, vegetable, or sweet type dish. Savory to me describes more of a sauce rather than a piece of food.

Some examples of what I consider to be savory are:

Demi Glace
Ragout
Natural Jus
Red Wine/Stock Reduction
Porcini or similar type Mushroom Reduction
Pan Gravies

To me, a piece of steak by itself cannot be savory, but a piece of steak served with a rich peppercorn demi can be savory.

 

[AllenOK]

I look at it both ways, and accept both definitions. "Savory", classically, means something non-sweet, and is usually applied to dishes that can go both ways, like "Sweet" and "Savory" pies, etc. However, in modern usage, "Savory" can also be applied to as a description to any well-seasoned food, like the way I make my Roast Chicken, covered in herbs.

 

[jpinmaryland]

Okay but under either def'n it is still confusing to use the term in a list of the basic tastes. E.g. a list that goes: "sweet, sour, bitter, savory.." something like that. Right? Because the term savory encompasses more than one of the basic tastes and so it is different from the other terms in the list.

 

[Robo410]

we're getting there. Savory is very much a combination term. Rich with natural flavors juices and seasonings. often reduced or intensified. Tomato basil bruschetta can be savory, but is often described as fresh or refreshing; olive garlic anchovie tapande may be savory, roast chicken with varous root vegetables and gravy made with pan drippings, herbs etc would be savory etc. A sausage cheese biscuit and on it goes. It's more than sweet, or creamy, or sour, but may include them. I suppose even a sweet curry could be considered savory because of the complexity of the spices with the coconut milk and the other juices, vegetable or meat, involved. And that's probably the key, a complex taste experience with depth of flavor from many combined ingredients.

 

[jpinmaryland]

its probably no coincidence that those ingredients that provide unami seem to get mentioned again and again. Let's see if I know them: tomatoes, mushrooms, cheese, seaweed, MSG, I think those are the main ones...Perhaps we can amend our def'n to say that savory usually associated with these types of ingredients. Anchovies too?

 

[GB]

I am guessing that the term savory is another one of those terms that has taken on different meanings over time.

I just happened to be watching the Simpsons last night and this was one of the lines. I thought it was quite appropriate to our discussion ...

Bart: Sweeeet, Fresh Meat
Millhouse: Meats not sweet, it's savory.

jpinmaryland I moved this thread because you were asking about a definition of a cooking term. Things like that belong in the Terms and Techniques forum. Once of the jobs of helpers and administrators is to keep the board in a logical order. I always reply within the post I move letting everyone know that the post has a new location. If you get email notifications of new posts then you will see the message that the thread has been moved

 

[jpinmaryland]

okay it's logical now that you moved both the Piquant and the Savory posts. That makes sense. I couldnt figure out why the one.

The board still seems like it has too many categories to navigate through although in the months since I've been gone the folders do seem to be filling up more.

I think the first board someone comes across should be the basic food groups or those basic categories that we had originally. As it exists now, the food portion of the folders is down so low that you dont even see it till you scroll downward. on my pc, all I see is "General cooking' terms techniques," etc. I dont even see Meats etc. until I scroll down I cannnot help but think a lot of people who have never been here are going to miss it.

 

[jennyema]

It's umami, with an "m."

Food scientists describe umami or savory as the 5th taste sensation.

Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami

But it is commonplace to call anything that isn't sweet "savory." This is more like shorthand and not food science, though.

 

[Claire]

Savory: 1. Appetizing to the taste or smell; 2. Piquant, pungent, or salty to the taste, not sweet (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language). It's one of those cases where the word can mean two things, and it is easy to confuse. As when you apply hot and/or spicy to a dish, it can mean many things to many people. In cooking most people I know who cook (and I am by no means a pro) use sweet and savory as opposites; when they say savory, they mean something you aren't going to eat for desert. On the other hand, anything you love can be called savory, and that is more commonly used by someone not cooking. And, well, we haven't even gotten into the herb in my garden!

 

[jpinmaryland]

I love it! Savory is defined as Piquant. We keep running around in circles! No seriously, that is a useful definition Claire. The entire thread has been quite illuminating, thanks everyone.

 

[jennyema]

I love it! Savory is defined as Piquant. We keep running around in circles! No seriously, that is a useful definition Claire. The entire thread has been quite illuminating, thanks everyone.

I thought this was a funny circle, too!

 

[jpinmaryland]

that's a good one.

 

[Michael in FtW]

I made the mistake of thinking I could find a definative answer and pulled out my copy of ORIGINS: A Short Etymological Dictionary of Modern English by Eric Partridge. Lets just say that the origins of savory and piquant get even more convoluted when you add in pungent!

So - the best I can come up with is the simple standard concept that savory means not sweet. Obviously, if something is "sweet and savory" then it is a mixture of mutually exclusive terms/flavors - as in sweet and sour sauce. So:

Savory: not sweet, piquant
Piquant: Pungent
Pungent: acrid, with a punch

 

[jpinmaryland]

that's great I'm glad it sparked your interest. Can you elaborate on anything else you found interesting when you did your foray? I mean since you took the trouble to research it, is there anything else worth mentioning that we might be interested in? I know I started out having one basic def'n but then when I saw it used in a certain way that Joy of Cooking did, then I got more confused...

 

[ironchef]

I think the bottom line is that it boils down to whatever the a cook or chef's individual preference is. For me, savory does not include anything sweet or that has a predominant citrus, acid, or spicy flavor. Although a sauce or dish can have some citrus and spicyness and still be savory (i.e. chili), I don't personally like to intertwine the three tastes. Like I said before, for myself, I like savory to be rich with a lot of depth in flavor, used more in reference towards a sauce (i.e. a Porcini-Merlot Demi Glace). But that's my own personal interpretation of the word.