"Discover Cooking, Discuss Life."

Go Back   Discuss Cooking - Cooking Forums > General Cooking Information > Outdoor Cooking Forum > Campfire & Dutch Oven Cooking
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-18-2007, 09:32 PM   #21
Chef Extraordinaire
 
Katie H's Avatar
Site Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: I live in the Heartland of the United States - Western Kentucky
Posts: 16,228
Okay, Jammero, I have to agree with you. I will only buy oval Dutch ovens because soups and stews don't care what the shape the container they're in. However, if I'm cooking something oval or oblong, such as a chicken or ham, or whatever, I need the vessel to be elongated. All my Dutch ovens are oval for that reason.
__________________
"As a girl I had zero interest in the stove." - Julia Child
This is real inspiration. Look what Julia became!
Katie H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2007, 09:40 PM   #22
Master Chef
 
Michael in FtW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 6,592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammero
Please excuse me for joining in because I have a question instead of an answer but since I'm just learning myself, wouldn't an oval French oven work good for a shoulder or ham since it seems like their shapes would be sort of form fitting?
Absolutely!

The only reason I can think of to have two different shapes of French Ovens would be the conform to the shape of the food being cooked in them ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael in FtW
If I had a round and an oval french oven ... I would probably select one based on the overall shape of the food - tenderloins and chickens are oval - roasts are generally round ... depending on the roast.
Oh, Jammero - never EVERY be afraid to jump in and make a comment or ask a question! Some of us may "debate" things from time to time ... but I've never heard of anyone actually getting bit!
__________________
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
Michael in FtW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2007, 09:42 PM   #23
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 37
Thank's Katie E, I feel like I'm starting to learn already.
__________________
Snap, Crackle, Pop. The three most effective methods of a Cereal killer.
Jammero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2007, 09:44 PM   #24
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 37
Thank's Michael, I appreciate and will remember that.
__________________
Snap, Crackle, Pop. The three most effective methods of a Cereal killer.
Jammero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2007, 10:07 PM   #25
Executive Chef
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: SE Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,655
great post MIcheal! for what it's worth, my experience with French ovens is buy a good one. THe cheap ones will chip or crack even if you are careful. Le Crueset, Lamont, Straub have all stood the test of time. If you must buy cheap get a raw cast iron one and season it yourself.
Robo410 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2007, 10:45 PM   #26
Certified Pretend Chef
 
Andy M.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 47,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael in FtW View Post
It's easy to be confused - the term dutch oven has been so missused it's had for anyone to figure out what one is.

A REAL Dutch Oven is designed for use on a campfire - not on a stovetop or in an oven. It is made of thick cast iron, has three short legs on the bottom and has a relatively flat lid with a lip around it to keep coals from sliding off. They probably got their name from being made using the Dutch process of casting iron, and by heating from the top and bottom they acted like an oven.

Something else called a Dutch Oven is a camp oven ... again made from thick cast iron - no legs and has a domed lid with cone-shaped spikes on the bottom of the lid ... these collect condensation and help redistribute the moisture evenly across the pot. These can be used on the stovetop or in the oven.

Now, another pot that is often mistakenly called a Ducth Oven is a pot made from thinner cast iron and coated with enamel - like LeCruset. These are "French" Ovens ... if you look at LeCruset's website and you will not find the term Dutch Oven anywhere. These are also excellent for stovetop and oven.

And the others ... manufacturers who don't know what to call a 5 or 6 qt pot that is wider than it is tall just call them "Ducth Ovens" regardless of the material - because they are the same shape even if they share none of the cooking characteristics of a real DO.

Cast iron, and enamel coated cast iron, pots share one things in common ... cast iron is a POOR (slow) but EVEN heat conductor ... which is exactly what makes them so great for long, slow cooking - over a camp fire, on the stovetop or in the oven ... as the temperature around them changes they remain more constant than copper, aluminum, hard anodized aluminum or stainless steel.

Enameled cast iron doesn't have to be seasoned ... which is an advantage over regular cast iron ... plus it comes in pretty colors, it cost more, and is more prone to damage from thermal shock. LeCruset is the most famous French Oven - and the most expensive ... there are other less know brands that are IMHO just as good. But, like keltin said - check the oven specs to see how hot you can get it. Although the enameling process requires some really high temps - really thin enamel coatings are not always rated for higher oven temps.

What you get depends on what you're going to use it for and how.

Sorry ... calling every 5-6 qt pot a dutch oven is like scraping fingernails across a blackboard to me ...

Another great post Michael. Allow me to play devil's advocate. These thoughts have been churning for a while.

I always figured the Dutch in Dutch oven related to the convention of using the word Dutch to mean less than authentic or real. e.g. a dutch uncle isn't really an uncle. A Dutch treat - you're not really being treated. A Dutch oven - not really an oven but a reasonable facsimilie.

While it is true that LeCrueset insists on the term French oven, I don't think it's because there is a difference between their product and Dutch ovens. Rather that they are a French company...

One of the reasons I bought an enameled French oven was because of the possibility of acidic ingredients' reacting with the CI to create off colors and flavors. I didn't want to have to deal with that.

While I am a fan of the CI DO (enameled), I wonder if the material really matters. These vessels are used for long, constant heat cooking processes. The heat source is typically constant with minimal fluctuations. I would think a clad vessel which reacts more quickly to heat changes but distributes it evenly, such as clad SS, would be equally effective.

I've used clad SS sauce pans (4 to 8 quart sizes) for braises, soups and stews with success. I typically do this in the oven so I don't have to worry about stove top burner fluctuations.

Just my thoughts.
__________________
"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." -Carl Sagan
Andy M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2007, 11:19 PM   #27
Chef Extraordinaire
 
Uncle Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Small Town Mississippi
Posts: 17,515
The origin of the name "Dutch Oven" is the subject of much fun debate.
Three very popular theories are. In 1704 an Englishman traveled to Holland to see the Dutch casting process for brass pots etc which were cast in sand molds. He returned to England, started to experiment with new casting ideas using better molds, better sand etc.Finally, Abraham Darby began casting pots and shipping them to the "New World" and every where else as well. Thus the name comes from the original "Dutch" process for sand casting metal pots.

Another is that Dutch traders, peddlers, traveling door to door selling pots gave the pot their name...Dutch ovens. Others give credit to the Dutch settlers in Pennsylvania who used these pots. The real truth probably lies in all three. I personally buy into, and give a lot of weight to the Abraham Darby story.

It's also interesting to note that the "flat" lid with lip that is used today on "Camp" ovens was an improved designed by none other than Paul Revere, a silver smith, of "Midnight Ride" fame. Some folks question this, but it is generally accepted as fact.

By any name, or shape the taste of food cooked in one is unmatched by most other types of cookware.
__________________
There is only one Quality worse than Hardness of Heart, and that is Softness of Head.

Kool-Aid...Think Before You Drink
Uncle Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2007, 12:20 AM   #28
Master Chef
 
Michael in FtW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 6,592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M.
... Allow me to play devil's advocate. ...
As if I didn't already have keltin and Caine serving in that capacity ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M.
I always figured the Dutch in Dutch oven related to the convention of using the word Dutch to mean less than authentic or real. e.g. a dutch uncle isn't really an uncle. A Dutch treat - you're not really being treated. A Dutch oven - not really an oven but a reasonable facsimilie.
There is some debate over whether "Dutch" refers to the fact that they were made from the Dutch method of (sand) casting - or if it refers to Dutch peddlers selling them .. but the general concensus, from what I've read, goes with the former. These pots didn't exist before the Durch process was brought back to England ... and I'm too tired to go look up the references again .. I know I posted this a couple or three years ago ... complete with links to references ... you might ask Dutchess since she has access to a very authoritative book on CI and it's use in America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M.
While it is true that LeCrueset insists on the term French oven, I don't think it's because there is a difference between their product and Dutch ovens. Rather that they are a French company...
The CI in a French Oven is thinner than a DO ... from the ones I've seen. And, when I was researching this 2-3 years ago I did find references to "French" ovens being used in Germany back in the 1800's ... people didn't have ovens in their homes and would take their "french" oven to the bakers (who didn't nake on Sunday but their ovens were kept hot) on Sunday morning to cook their Sunday meal ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M.
One of the reasons I bought an enameled French oven was because of the possibility of acidic ingredients' reacting with the CI to create off colors and flavors. I didn't want to have to deal with that.
I think Uncle Bob will agree with me on this - well seasoned CI is virtually non-reactive when it comes to cooking - but you don't want to store your acidic food in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M.
While I am a fan of the CI DO (enameled), I wonder if the material really matters. These vessels are used for long, constant heat cooking processes. The heat source is typically constant with minimal fluctuations. I would think a clad vessel which reacts more quickly to heat changes but distributes it evenly, such as clad SS, would be equally effective.
You've kind of answered your own question without realizing it. Since CI is a poor heat conductor - it is slow to react ... so as an oven heats up and cools down - the CI pot maintains a more constant temp. A pot made from a good conductor would have the same fluctuations as the oven ... copper would be the worst in that respect. On top of the stove - same problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M.
I've used clad SS sauce pans (4 to 8 quart sizes) for braises, soups and stews with success. I typically do this in the oven so I don't have to worry about stove top burner fluctuations.
Stove tops are generally more constant than ovens, which cycle on and off.

But, I agree - I think too much is made about some "clad up the sides" cookware when a comperable pot with a thick heavy encapsulated bottom will work just as well ... and my 6-qt hard anodized aluminum pot has never failed me as a substitute for my CI when I didn't have access to it.

If I remember right - you have McGee's On Food and Cooking ... did you ever pick up his The Curious Cook?
__________________
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
Michael in FtW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2007, 05:41 AM   #29
Certified Pretend Chef
 
Andy M.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 47,438
Michael, you've given me a lot to think about. Thanks, I think.

I don't have The Curious Cook. I guess i should look into it so I can try to keep up.
__________________
"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." -Carl Sagan
Andy M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2007, 12:03 PM   #30
Certified/Certifiable
 
Chief Longwind Of The North's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: USA,Michigan
Posts: 10,760
I'll add one more wrinkle to this yarn. The "Dutch" who settled in Pennsylvania were actually German settlers. They were Doiche. The nmae was changed, the same as numerous native American names were changed, to make them easier for others to pronounce.

And so... if the latter story was true, that the Pennsylvania Dutch were the origin of the name, then the pot would be more correctly called a Doiche oven.

Seeeeeya; Bob Flowers
__________________
“No amount of success outside the home can compensate for failure within the home…"

Check out my blog for the friendliest cooking instruction on the net. Go ahead. You know you want to.- https://gwnorthsfamilycookin.wordpress.com/
Chief Longwind Of The North is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2007, 12:39 PM   #31
Executive Chef
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 3,102
Quote:
Originally Posted by keltin View Post
Personally………..I’d suggest an outdoor camp DO, but I’m partial to that!

For a good DO for inside cooking, go with cast iron, flat bottom. domed lid, and go with Lodge. You can’t beat them. Cast iron is slow to heat, but holds heat fantastically. It can be used on stove-top or oven. A fantastic piece!

And dang if these great pieces aren’t also very affordable!!!

If you want a DO for outdoor, then go with one with this design. You need a flat lid and legs to keep it off the ground.

A 10" is great to start with and perfect for 2 people. A 12" is bigger and can handle most anything.
While attempting to answer my own question I found that design for $10 less at Bass Pro Shops. Might be worth a trip if you have one close.
Callisto in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2007, 06:01 PM   #32
Head Chef
 
David Cottrell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Norwalk, Ohio
Posts: 1,193
Callisto in NC says, "While attempting to answer my own question I found that design for $10 less at Bass Pro Shops. Might be worth a trip if you have one close."

Thanks, don't have one close here in Ohio - but on line they do have a nice line-up of Lodge cast iron don't they.
David Cottrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2007, 06:34 PM   #33
Head Chef
 
David Cottrell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Norwalk, Ohio
Posts: 1,193
Dutch Oven History

I just received a reply about DO history from Lynne Olver, Editor, of www.foodtimeline.com She kindly hand copied some reference material on the history for me - it's kinda long but adds interesting info to the discussion - should I copy it into this thread? Be glad to - it's ready to go. Would one of the managers let me know? Thanks?
David Cottrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2007, 07:43 PM   #34
Master Chef
 
Michael in FtW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 6,592
Andy M.: The Curious Cook is a bit different from On Food and Cooking - it's out of print and can be hard to find, especially at a reasonable price. This is the only thing I'ver bought off eBay ... and it was about $50 cheaper than off Amazon! There is one HB copy on eBay now - with a BuyItNow price of only $10 + $3.75 shipping! That, my friend, is a steal!!! If you saw Alton Brown's "myth smashers" episode ... you'll quickly figure out where he got the idea for the show. I would venture to guess that not many people would really enjoy it - but knowing you I think you would.

Callisto: Yep, it pays to shop around! Bass Pro, Cabellas, WalMart, some Army-Navy stores, even Ace Hardware are good sources for some CI cookware for less than the MSRP list prices Lodge sells their stuff for on their website. Of course - Good Will and Salvation Army thrift stores can be a treasure trove some times.

David Cottrell: Hey - post it! We're all here to share thoughts and ideas ... I know I'm not to old or stubborn to learn something new.
__________________
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
Michael in FtW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2007, 08:18 PM   #35
Head Chef
 
David Cottrell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Norwalk, Ohio
Posts: 1,193
Exclamation DO History from Food Time Line

From Foodtimeline
Date 2007/10/19 Fri PM 05:38:45 CDT
To david cottrell
Subject Re: Dutch Ovens

Mr. Cottrell,

The Oxford English Dictionary traces the print genesis of "Dutch Oven" to 1922. American food historians beg to differ. On a practical note? This versatile, portable cooking receptacle married the cauldron with the spider.

"The term "Dutch oven" as used here, refers to an American pot of European ancestry, a small, portable, cast-iron oven that as evolved to accommodate changing fuel sources since the eighteenth century. This is to distinguish it from the English use of the same term, which refers to what Americans call tin-reflecting ovens or side-wall fireplace brick ovens.

The derivation of the term is similarly unclear, perhaps referring to legendary
Dutch frugality (far less fuel required) or perhaps early Dutch expertise in casting iron, but it is probably an American designation. In any case, the American Dutch oven has been valued for its combination of steaming and baking, stewing, and braising.

Eighteenth-century American Dutch ovens were designed for the hearth, where they were heated with glowing embers. The high rims of their heavy lids held the flowing fuel on the top. Additional heat was provided by piles of coals underneath, and the oven's three legs held it a good height above the heat source.

Dutch ovens hung over the heat from swinging bail handles or were maneuvered by C-shaped handles on their sides. They were made in different sizes--the smallest was simultaneously pot and oven, while the larger ones could also contain pans of food. American Dutch vens can be traced to seventeenth-century Europe in such still-life paintings as Harmen Van Steenwyrk's Skillet and Game (1646)...

An English version called the "bake kettle" varied, in that it was sometimes a round-bottomed, straight-sided kettle that hung covered over the heat and at other times was a flat-bottomed hanging kettle...These kettles were often found in remote European areas with little access to commercial bakeries or enough wood to fuel home brick ovens.

American Dutch ovens were manufactured in the colonies in the eighteenth century--the Pine Grove Furnace (Pennsylvania) produced three sizes...By the mid- to late nineteenth century, early American manufacturers of cast-iron implements were producing variations of hearth Dutch ovens called "spiders" (frying pans) and ovens that retained their legs and high-rimmed heavy lids."


---Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America, Andrew F. Smith editor [Oxford University Press:New
York] 2004, Volume 1 (p. 416-7)

"Why "Dutch"? One reasonable explanation for the name is given by Louise Peet and Lenore Sater in Household Equipment, NY John Wiley, 1934, 1940. They wrote: "Dutch ovens were brought to America by the Pilgrims. As it is well known the Pilgrims spent some time in Holland before coming to America. The Mayflower was a tiny vessel and baggage limited.

The dutch oven could be used for such a variety of cookery that it took the place of several other pots and pans and was, therefore, a favorite utensil of the early settlers."...The word "Dutch" is sometimes used to indicate that something is a substitute for something else...a Dutch oven is a substitute for a built-in bake oven."

---300 Years of Kitchen Collectibles, Linda Campbell Franlin, [Krause Publications:IolaWI] 5th edition, 2003 (p.
573)

If you need more information please let us know.
-----------------------------------
Lynne Olver (IACP), editor
The Food Timeline
Food Timeline: food history information & historic recipes
David Cottrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2007, 08:21 PM   #36
Head Chef
 
David Cottrell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Norwalk, Ohio
Posts: 1,193
Sorry it's so long, but I see where the "oven" came from - the large pots were big enough to hold several pans and hence served as ovens hanging over the open fire or hot coals.
David Cottrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2007, 08:52 PM   #37
Executive Chef
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 3,102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael in FtW View Post
Callisto: Yep, it pays to shop around! Bass Pro, Cabellas, WalMart, some Army-Navy stores, even Ace Hardware are good sources for some CI cookware for less than the MSRP list prices Lodge sells their stuff for on their website. Of course - Good Will and Salvation Army thrift stores can be a treasure trove some times.
Hey, Michael, comment and two questions. Comment ~ our Wal-Mart sucks for CI. I can't even buy a stovetop grill there that's worth anything. They carry some {assumed} POS for $12 that's supposedly pre-cured but it doesn't look like it and the rest is no name carp. I look every time I'm there. The good news is I work by Bass Pro so next payday I think I'll make a stop.

Now to the questions. What is Cabellas? And my "dutch oven" says on the lid it's a dutch oven. The lid is nested by slightly domed and it has no feet. I love it for frying and it so well cured because of that frying. So is it really a dutch oven since it doesn't have feet and the lid is slightly domed? It's about 50 years old, if not older. My dad is 70 and he and my mom got it as a wedding gift and I think my parents married at about 23. The lid says it's a Grisworld No. 9 Tight-Top Dutch Oven. Ever heard of it?
Callisto in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2007, 09:56 PM   #38
Master Chef
 
Michael in FtW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 6,592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callisto in NC
... our Wal-Mart sucks for CI. I can't even buy a stovetop grill there that's worth anything. ...
Not all stores carry the same inventory ... I know that even around here it differs from store to store ... they stock what sells the most at each store (according to a WalMart department maganer). I know that the Ace Hardware store in one part of town has very little CI - and another one on the other side of town with a large Mexican population has a lot - and better prices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Callisto in NC
What is Cabellas?
Sorry - my fingers stuttered on the "L" .... it's Cabela's ... they are to Bass Pro what Target is to K-Mart is to WalMart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Callisto in NC
And my "dutch oven" says on the lid it's a dutch oven. The lid is nested by slightly domed and it has no feet. I love it for frying and it so well cured because of that frying. So is it really a dutch oven since it doesn't have feet and the lid is slightly domed? It's about 50 years old, if not older. My dad is 70 and he and my mom got it as a wedding gift and I think my parents married at about 23.
LOL - that is kind of what we're debating - or rather, trying to figure out! Was "Dutch Oven" a term applied to two different pots used in two different but similar ways???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Callisto in NC
The lid says it's a Grisworld No. 9 Tight-Top Dutch Oven. Ever heard of it?
Griswold is excellent cast iron .... produced from about 1865 through the late 1950's in Erie, PA. It is now "collectable" due to its age and since it is no longer made. Your pot is probably also labeled "9 Erie 2552" somewhere under/around the logo - and probably measures 11" in diameter and 4 1/2" deep. My aunt has one that was my grandmothers - and she uses it a lot.
__________________
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
Michael in FtW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2007, 10:55 PM   #39
Executive Chef
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 3,102
Michael, you are just scary smart. YES, it has the 2552 stamp and says patent 1920 on the inside of the lid. My daddy was raised in Franklin/Oil City area PA so this is original location purchase. I guess I'll hold on to it like it's gold. I love the pot. I fry in it, I boil potatoes in it, and I cook roasts in it. It's indestructible.

Thank you so much for your wealth of knowledge. I'm really happy about that info and it makes me feel connected to my family. I feel like I need to ask my dad if it might have been my grandma's before he married my mom because it's definitely older than their marriage.
Callisto in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2007, 12:30 PM   #40
Certified/Certifiable
 
Chief Longwind Of The North's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: USA,Michigan
Posts: 10,760
Around these parts (that would be world-wide) we like to think of Michael as a resource. I've yet to see a subject he doesn't know something about. In fact, I'm going to open up a non-food thread just to see if we can't throw something at him that he doesn't know, heh, heh.

Seeeeeeya; Goodweed of the North
__________________
“No amount of success outside the home can compensate for failure within the home…"

Check out my blog for the friendliest cooking instruction on the net. Go ahead. You know you want to.- https://gwnorthsfamilycookin.wordpress.com/
Chief Longwind Of The North is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.