Stocks

[scott123]

Guess I will also leave out the onions, celery, etc. that I used to throw in for a change as well.

Mudbug, I prepare my stock without aromatics for two reasons

1. Because I feel it gives me greater flexibility later down the line. If I need stock for a dish that I don't want the taste of celery, for example.

2. Onions and carrots both leech off starch that, in turn, cause an emulsifying effect on stock. This prevents less fat from rising to the top for skimming off.

 

[mudbug]

Interesting, didn't know that. Typically I don't get much fat to skim either.

I was also interested to hear about creating stock with fresh vs. roasted parts. Usually I've used "pre-driven" parts, so I'm thinking next time I will use fresh unused pieces to see what result I get.

 

[scott123]

Yes, the vast majority of chefs don't roast their poultry either.

Using an unroasted bird gives you a lighter stock. There are a handful of recipes where you need a vey light (white) stock, both from a perspective of flavor and appearance. I don't find myself making them much.

The one interesting thing that I've learned about using fresh chicken for stock is that during the entire process of simmering, maillard (browning) compounds are being formed, especially during the final reduction, as the moisture is being boiled away. Basically, if you reduce an unroasted stock enough, you get the exact same color/flavor as if you started with a roasted bird.

If your goal is the whitest stock possible, beginning with fresh poultry and simmering it/reducing it minimally will help to achieve that end.

Like I said, recipes utilizing white stock aren't my thing White stocks, imo, are a more aristocratic approach where roasted stocks seem to be more in the line of peasant food.

 

[Audeo]

Thanks for the info, scott!

 

[keen kook]

Vinegar - how much?

I read the various posts about vinegar and agree that it should help in gaining as much of the valuable bone material as possible.

Quick question - how much vinegar to use? I don't want to throw away a stock because I've used too much.

 

[jennyema]

The one interesting thing that I've learned about using fresh chicken for stock is that during the entire process of simmering, maillard (browning) compounds are being formed, especially during the final reduction, as the moisture is being boiled away. Basically, if you reduce an unroasted stock enough, you get the exact same color/flavor as if you started with a roasted bird..

A :?:

The Maillard reaction is not fully triggered until approximatley 285 degrees or higher (depending on pH, etc)

Simmering water is less than 212 degrees (at sea level).

So how can just simmering create melanoidins (the brown savory stuff)?

 

[Alix]

keen kook, I use about 2 tbsps per stockpot of water. That would be two carcasses worth of bones.

 

[scott123]

The one interesting thing that I've learned about using fresh chicken for stock is that during the entire process of simmering, maillard (browning) compounds are being formed, especially during the final reduction, as the moisture is being boiled away. Basically, if you reduce an unroasted stock enough, you get the exact same color/flavor as if you started with a roasted bird..

A :?:

The Maillard reaction is not fully triggered until approximatley 285 degrees or higher (depending on pH, etc)

Simmering water is less than 212 degrees (at sea level).

So how can just simmering create melanoidins (the brown savory stuff)?

Browning reactions are associated with higher temperatures as that range is where they occur the quickest/most readily. Given the right conditions/time, they occuring at much lower temperatures, even room temp.

As stock simmers, it takes on color. It's an extremely slow process. During the final reduction stage, as the proteins/sugars become more concentrated, the process accelerates. It never reaches the speed at which color occurs in a roasting environment, but it does produce a darker stock.

Take a pot of strained stock and split it into two pots. Reduce one pot by 3/4, add water back to it's original volume, then visually compare the two pots. The reduced stock will be noticeably darker.

 

[scott123]

I've been giving some thought to altering the pH of stock with vinegar.

The bone material is not what makes good stock. It's the collagen/gelatin that the bones/skin/cartilage/connective tissue contain. This gelatin melts with prolonged moist cooking. Just water and heat. By adding acid to the mix you're accelerating the disintegration of the bones.

Although the bones do break down to an extent during prolonged simmering, this is most definitely not the goal. Bones don't taste good. Collagen/gelatin tastes good. You want to minimize bone dissolution, not maximize it.

Sure, the bones add extra calcium to your diet. If you need extra calcium, take a supplement.

 

[Ardge]

I used to make stocks every 2 or 3 months or so. I haven't done it in quite some time though. To make it right, it surely takes a good part of a day and that kinda time is something I don't have much anymore.

I have a 24 quart All Clad stock pot. A finished batch of stock out of this will serve me for awhile. I first make a great pot of soup. Maybe two. Then, I freeze the rest of my stock in ice cube trays. Pan sauces, small sauces, etc. I have homemade stock just by reaching in my extra ice cube trays. Pretty nifty, huh?

Here's my ratio of prep for chicken stock:

The size of your stock pot is 100%.
Fill it 50% with bones.
Fill it 10% with THICK, ROUGH CHOPPED Mirepoix. (2 parts onion, 1 part carrot, 1 part celery)
Fill it to the top with COLD water.
Add a sachet with peppercorn, a few bay leaves, and some thyme. (Judge on how much you need by the size of the batch.)


Bring it to a simmer. Never stir or boil. Alway skim the scum off the top.

NOTE: If your bones are frozen, blanch them first before using.

Chicken stock cooks for a minimum of 8 hours.


For beef stock, it is the same procedure except the bones are to be painted with tomato paste, then roasted in the oven before you make stock.

Beef stock cooks for a minimum of 10 hours.



Both are passed through a strainer lined with cheesecloth when done.



Golly, I'm hungry! I soooooo want me some soup!

RJ

 

[jennyema]

Browning reactions are associated with higher temperatures as that range is where they occur the quickest/most readily. Given the right conditions/time, they occuring at much lower temperatures, even room temp.

As stock simmers, it takes on color. It's an extremely slow process. During the final reduction stage, as the proteins/sugars become more concentrated, the process accelerates. It never reaches the speed at which color occurs in a roasting environment, but it does produce a darker stock.

Take a pot of strained stock and split it into two pots. Reduce one pot by 3/4, add water back to it's original volume, then visually compare the two pots. The reduced stock will be noticeably darker.

I agree with everything except have a ?? about the bolded sentence. The stock will become darker in color, even at lower teperatures (esp. if pH is lower -- hence the discussion of vinegar). BUT after the proteins and sugars combine, the last phase of the Maillard reaction, the creation of melanoidins which create the roasted taste needs more heat than simmering temp, doesn't it?

Even beer needs to be brought to 250 or so for it to happen, as I understand it.

The Maillard reaction may be responsible for the darker color, but is not concentration and not the MR responsible for the taste? I still think you cannot create the exact same flavors of browned meat through simmering.

Just call me Shirley

 

[scott123]

Okay Ms. Corriher

Since Harold McGee is doing a Q&A in one of the forums I participate in, I ran the question by him.
Here is his reply:

Yes, we normally think of browning reactions as a high-temp, dry process, but when the amino acids and sugars are sufficiently concentrated—or the cooking time long enough—they occur at sub-boiling temperatures and in liquids. Another example is the wort—the boiled extract of malt and grains—in beer making. And the white of eggs turns tan when simmered very gently for hours (Middle eastern beid hamin) thanks to the protein and a trace of glucose.

 

[jennyema]

egullet, i presume?

I had wanted to be in on that one, as I love HM!!

Thanks for the info. I knew aboit the beer, but it generally comes to temp of 250 or so under pressure.

Thanks again!!

 

[sudsmaster]

I learned about the vinegar trick back in the 70's, from the books by Adele Davis, the self-made nutirtionist who was famous for the book, "Let's Eat Right to Keep Fit". Anyway, it makes chemical sense. I have noticed that if the vinegar is added after hours of simmering the stock will turn cloudy immediately. I am not sure what is happening there, but I suspect that protein denaturation is involved. I think it's most effective to add the vinegar at the start of the simmering, as that will leach the most minerals from the bones.

If the stock still tastes acid at the end of the simmering, it can be boiled vigorously to help drive off the volatile vinegar. I suppose one could also add some sodium bicarb (baking soda) to neutralize the acid, as well. It will turn the vinegar to sodium acetate, which is harmless.

Cheers!