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Old 04-08-2011, 06:57 PM   #41
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What is wrong with 1/2 tsp sugar to sweeten up the tomatoes? I too would use red wine OF GOOD QUALITY, maybe 1/3 cup and forget the cloves and capers. This isn't a pumpkin pie. You might also deepen the taste with a couple TBS of tomato paste. Cook it longer than 20 minutes. Flavors will blend better with a longer slow simmer. Everything should be of the best and freshest quality. San Marino tomatoes from Italy will taste better than Hunts. Try it again and let us know the results.
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:08 PM   #42
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What is wrong with 1/2 tsp sugar to sweeten up the tomatoes?...

My friend's old Italian mom calls it blasphemy to put sugar in tomato sauce. The addition of ingredients such as tomato paste and carrots can be caramelized to counteract acidity without making the sauce sweet.
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:13 PM   #43
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june, while i would agree that a marinara sauce is usually a very basic sauce, saying it's not open to interpretation is both silly and somewhat pompous...
I agree with Chef June. I too may be considered silly or pompous by some, but I believe in calling things what they are instead of what someone misinterprets them to be, therefore avoiding confusion.

Altering an existing dish, especially a classic, is fine... by just don't identify it by using the classic name, because it's NOT!

Instead of being silly or pompous, I prefer to think I'm holding to tradition while objecting to naming a dish that is inferior to the original.
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:41 PM   #44
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yeah, the heck with historical accuracy. let's define things now and then we can be better than those who follow us who might get it wrong.

btw, i didn't call june silly or pompous, just her insistance of fact in this case.
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:44 PM   #45
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I agree with Chef June. I too may be considered silly or pompous by some, but I believe in calling things what they are instead of what someone misinterprets them to be, therefore avoiding confusion.

Altering an existing dish, especially a classic, is fine... by just don't identify it by using the classic name, because it's NOT!

Instead of being silly or pompous, I prefer to think I'm holding to tradition while objecting to naming a dish that is inferior to the original.
I agree too. Yeah, maybe I'm a pompous, old fuddy duddy, stuffed shirt, and a stickler for detail. I've been called worse.

When I made a really yummy dish called "moussaka", I called it moussakoid, until I had done enough internet research to see that it fell within the parameters of what a classic moussaka is. Now, I call it moussaka.
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:45 PM   #46
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I agree with Chef June. I too may be considered silly or pompous by some, but I believe in calling things what they are instead of what someone misinterprets them to be, therefore avoiding confusion.

Altering an existing dish, especially a classic, is fine... by just don't identify it by using the classic name, because it's NOT!

Instead of being silly or pompous, I prefer to think I'm holding to tradition while objecting to naming a dish that is inferior to the original.

When a dish develops over time from a multitude of sources, it's difficult to pinpoint a single authentic recipe. Consider recipes for meatballs, beef stew, clam chowder, etc, etc. Every cook has their own version of the recipe.

Is it still the classic recipe if you add more or less of one or two of the ingredients? What if you leave out the onion or the garlic? Can I add salt and pepper?
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:52 PM   #47
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When a dish develops over time from a multitude of sources, it's difficult to pinpoint a single authentic recipe. Consider recipes for meatballs, beef stew, clam chowder, etc, etc. Every cook has their own version of the recipe.

Is it still the classic recipe if you add more or less of one or two of the ingredients? What if you leave out the onion or the garlic? Can I add salt and pepper?
To define or redefine a classic dish based on the addition or absence of one or two ingredients, is difficult to do, I admit, but just like the old movie critic said, "I can't describe what pornography is or is not, but I'll know it when I see it!" -
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:56 PM   #48
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then please research marinara, not just recipes.

why in the world woukd it be named something to do with the sea? some guy named giuseppe marinara invented it in 1862, wrote it down and patented it?

like i said, i agreed that it was a simple sauce, but the name came before the most commonly known recipe was accepted, so being righteous about it to another person is being righteous to a fault. imo, of course, lol.
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:57 PM   #49
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...the old movie critic said, "I can't describe what pornography is or is not, but I'll know it when I see it!" -

That would be great if he as the only person ever allowed to describe it. I'd bet my description would be different, as would yours.
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Old 04-08-2011, 08:09 PM   #50
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From what I can quickly gather:

Marinara sauce means "sailor style" tomato sauce.

Cooks on Neapoitan ships invented marinara sauce in the mid-16th century after Spaniards introduced the tomato (a new world fruit) to Europe. This meat-free sauce was easy to make and resisted spoiling due to tomatoes' high acidity. This made it suitable for lengthy sea voyages.
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Old 04-08-2011, 08:17 PM   #51
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right, so the term was a generalization about a simple sauce, not a specific, standardized recipe.

maybe one of you guys were on one of those ships and can prove me wrong. if so, i apologize...
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:06 PM   #52
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It seems that this conversation about sauce has been going on here for years.
http://www.discusscooking.com/forums...uce-27077.html
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:15 PM   #53
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thanks for dredging that one up, k-l. i must have missed it.

food facism is such an ugly endeavor.
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:38 PM   #54
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thanks for dredging that one up, k-l. i must have missed it.

food facism is such an ugly endeavor.
I agree. But there still must be respect for the correct way to make a dish.
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Old 04-08-2011, 10:19 PM   #55
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i completely understand, jenny.

correct is the bothersome word there, but respect is the operative word.

that includes development of one's opinion. only a closed mind is certain.
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Old 04-08-2011, 10:24 PM   #56
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This quote is from a September 2006 thread on the subject of what constitutes marinara.

Quote:
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According to the recipe I follow by Anna Teresa Callen, who is from Abruzzo and Milano, and has written 5 cookbooks, there are only tomatoes, garlic parsley and basil as the main ingredients in marinara sauce, and it should not be cooked for a long time. She uses olive oil, a dab of tomato paste, and crusher red pepper flakes.

This quote is from earlier in this thread.

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First of all, that isn't Marinara Sauce. Marinara Sauce isn't up for creative endeavor. It's a classic sauce that consists of onions, tomatoes, garlic and basil. That's all...

Apparently, even classic recipes change over time.
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Old 04-09-2011, 02:40 AM   #57
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Let me pour marinara on troubled waters, the only time I have heard Marinara to describe a tommato sauce is in America. I make a lovely Moules Mariniere and serve it with Pomme Frit there are no toms in the moules and the frits are made with potato not apples.
Ps I dont use salted anchovies in anything I use salted sardines a Croatian speciality like the neck tie, as Marco Polo was a Croatian and from the journal written by the ships cook Seaman Staines great big wooden barrels filled with said sardines were taken on long voyages. When the barrel was empty Rodger the Cabin Boy would live in it.
These pics are of Croatian salted sardines stored in olive oil I take them on long voyages like the ferry trip across the Mersy on the Royal Iris to stop me getting scurvy Click image for larger version

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Old 04-09-2011, 05:35 AM   #58
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I have to laugh at the turn this has taken. As a person who has lived among many people from many countries and many, many parts of this country, I rarely call anything by a traditional name! I don't invite comparison. So everything is just something like (in this case) Claire's red sauce. Tomorrow I'm making my version of stuffed cabbage leaves. It is a combination of my mother's, my mother-in-law's, a Polish friend of my mother's, etc, recipes. So I don't call it anything that might offend someone because it isn't authentic!
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Old 04-09-2011, 07:07 AM   #59
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lol, yup.

too much in the op's recipe as well...
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Old 04-09-2011, 07:15 AM   #60
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Definitely a thread that has been seen in similar instances over the the years I've been here. I think it's so popular due to the importance of tomato sauce in so many popular American dishes. The vast majority of people just buy a jar, call it a day, and only fall upon trouble when they attempt to make their own from scratch. I would say a good tomato sauce is one of the more difficult things to master, as it relies on both quality ingredients and an ability to balance salt, acid, sugar, heat, texture, and aromas.

Without writing a book, I almost always use canned tomatoes. I caramelize A LOT of finely minced common onions in lots of ripe golden (not green) olive oil. As they turn deep gold I add some chile flakes (not much), garlic that has been mashed to a paste along with a tomato paste that tastes good from the can/tube. This results in a fantastic base similar to a Sofrito. Next I add some Pinot Grigio (that tastes good!) along with my canned whole peeled tomatoes which have been run through a food mill (blenders/processors tend to make more of an odd-textured coulee that is unsightly orange from the emulsified fats and air). Once it comes together (5 minutes or so), I run it all back through the food mill for the texture I'm looking for (relatively smooth, but not pureed). I then simmer it for 30-45 minutes, adding my herbs 20-30 minutes before it's finished. Dried or fresh works, but honestly I usually use some dried basil and a pinch of dried oregano. If I have some intoxicatingly fresh basil at the peak of summer I obviously use that.
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My marinara sauce recipe - please criticize! I didn't use any of the online recipes, and I follow a couple of rules given by Alton Brown: 1. use canned tomato or garden tomato 2. tomato has flavors soluable in water, oil and alcohol So my recipe goes like this: 28 ounce of canned crushed tomato 2 cloves of garlic, grated 1 small onion, chopped 3 tbls olive oil 1 once of capers 1 cup white wine salt and black pepper pinch of ground cloves 1 tsp each of dry oregano and dry basil 1 tbsp fresh chopped parsley 1 bay leaf heat oil in sauce plan and sweat the onion with a little salt. then add the garlic and brown them, while adding the parsley turn heat on high and pour in 1/3 of the tomato to fry it for 30 seconds turn heat back on low, pour in the rest of the tomato, wine, dry herbs, cloves, pepper and capers, then let cook for about 20 minutes The problem with this sauce is that it tastes too much like wine, there's this pungent, zesty taste that I don't really like. But it can also be from the capers. Should I reduce the wine and omit the capers? I use cheap 3 dollar white wine from the store (not cooking wine) 3 stars 1 reviews
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