Copper vs. dishwasher...who wins?

[7romanstatesmen]

i was curious what the effects of a dishwasher on a copper pan would be. it's not a real high-quality deal (all it says is O.D.I. Korea on it...does anyone know where they come from or anything else?), i just picked it up from a thrift store because i wanted a small frying pan. i've seen flimsier copper pieces, but it's nothing like the heavy-duty all-clad-type pans. it's pretty, which makes frying things up a bit more fun, so i don't want to ruin it just to save a couple of minutes a day.

i read through several threads about copper pans and i'm betting that what i have is lacquered. i think it's stainless steel on the inside (the surface is covered with circular scores that resemble machined metal, not suggesting that it is, that's just the best way to describe it). i only want to avoid corroding it due to some unforseen effect of dishwashing detergent, or some other condition found inside dishwashers. all imput is appreciated, thanks!

cheers,
miles

 

[TexanFrench]

Hi there--and congrats on your new pan!

I believe that the lacquer (if it is there) on your pan is there as a beauty treatment -- to prevent it from oxidizing and losing that nice copper color while it is on display in the store.

If the lacquer is on the surfaces where the pan will be heated and where the food will be cooked, it will probably deteriorate over time, and it will deteriorate faster in the dishwasher. (If you use a gel dishwashing liquid, it will be gentler.)

However, I don't believe copper needs to be nice and shiny to cook well. In fact, if it were me, I'd probably consider lacquer on copper a hindrance--something that will just get messy over time, anyway, and something I should consider removing. (Lacquer on the handles is less problematic--won't be directly exposed to cooking heat.)

What you do absolutely need to avoid is the oxidization that happens when bare copper is left damp.

This is a greenish oxidization that is poisonous, I believe.

The best way to avoid it is to wipe your pan dry immediately after washing it.

You should also be protective of the lining of your pan. Sometimes less-expensive pans have a traditional tin lining, which is rather fragile. If your pan overheats, or is used with abrasive cleaners/stirring tools, the tin can be damaged, and the copper underneath will be poisonous when cooked with certain foods. Use a wooden spoon and a low heat--and definitely avoid the dishwasher if you have a tin lining!

So, basically, in my opinion, the dishwasher is a gamble. If you do use it, be sure you pull out your pan immediately and hand-dry it. And use a gel soap, and an air-only drying cycle. (The drying cycle is where heat can really build up.) And make sure that the handle material (cast iron? brass? other?) and the lining material (tin?) won't be corroded by the dishwasher. And be prepared for your copper exterior to deteriorate (pitting and discoloration) more quickly.

Or just do it by hand. Which is what I do.

 

[Robo410]

if it is laquered, it is not meant for cooking. the laquer will turn black and be very hard to get off. TO remove it now, use boiling water and a cloth...look on line for instructions for removing laquer.

If it is not laquered, you should alwyas wash by hand. Cooper reacts to heat by tarnishing, and to alkalai soaps (dishwasher detergent) with equal effect. THe lining if it is steel will survive, but if it is tin, will be worn away by the pellets in dishwahing detergents.

Real culinary copper will come with instructions for use and care.

 

[Candocook]

If it is lacquered, it still may be meant for cooking but the lacquer must be removed. I believe my catalana says to use baking soda to use. I'll check. I would not find it terribly hard to handwash a pot. I handwash all my anodized aluminum, which cannot go in the dishwasher. But I have put my REvere copper bottomed pan in the dishwasher.
The inside of this sounds like tin and needs to be treated with a bit of care--and PARTIcularly, not heated to a high temp.

 

[Half Baked]

I received a copper tea pot and the directions said to remove the lacquer before heating the pot. The lacquer came off in sheets but I don't remember how they said to do it. It has to be on the internet but it seems to me that I used some type of solvent.

 

[lulu]

I long for copper cookware but was warned by my mother and her dread of the effort of maintaining the pans. I don't mind hand washing at all, but are they a realistic option as main pans for an enthusiastic home cook or simply too time consuming? I am reading the thread with interest.

 

[Half Baked]

Lulu, it would drive me nuts to have copper pots and pans that weren't polished all the time so they are out of the question for me.

Even it I used tarn-ex to remove the tarnish, I'd want them polished. I choose not to use my free time that way.

 

[TexanFrench]

I use Barkeeper's Friend on both copper and stainless. No big deal on either.

(The old-fashioned way to clean copper is to dip half a lemon in salt, and scrub with that. Works just as well as anything, if you happen to have a lemon on hand.)

However, I only worry about that every once in a while. The big advantage to copper is the control you have over the cooking process. Turn it on, it cooks. Turn it off, it's done. Nice for sauces, custardy things (eggs and milk), etc. I also confess that I use my (one and only, very heavy) pan for times when I'm in a hurry.

I have a 19th century copper thing (from my great-grandmother) that looks like a very small washtub. It was used to heat water on the stovetop, for canning jars or delicate items of hand-washed laundry. It's hand-hammered, and you couldn't get it reflection-shiny if you tried. Still looks classy, though!

 

[StirBlue]

Most times buying from a thrift store means that it was acquired through an estate sale. Many of their products are very expensive and the average bear will never have knowledge of them, see them, or ever use them.
You need to continue researching your pan. Many of these style pans are made for achieving a certain appetite pleaser.

 

[Robo410]

Major culinary copper companies: Mauviel, Bourgeat, Dehilerin (French) Falk Culinair (Belgian) use 2.5mm copper, and all of these have stainless bimetal bonded inside for an easy to care for surface. (The three French companies also make a tin lined line; Mauviel's is quite beautifully hand hammered!!) The three French companies use polished copper which any one of 10 or so copper polishes takes care of when you wash your pots. Real copper polishes easily. Copper wash or plate as in Revere Ware is harder to maintain and polish. Falk uses brushed copper and it cleans up easliy with Bar Keepers Friend and a Scotch Brite pad.

Now, polishing should not be the reason to not buy good copper cookware. However, the price will be an issue; it is expensive as it is the real thing. Also, it is heavy and that will not suit everyone either.

Other companies: Lara copper form Tasmania, available on the internet, Handmade by a metalsmith. Tin lined, medium weight, very good for the home, great on residential ranges gas or electric or glass top.
Tin is soft and the temp needs to be under 450* F ... not a problem for most uses as most American pans in use say oven safe to 400* or 450* at most, some even less. Tin cannot be scoured...soak the pan in hot sudsy water and wash with a sponge...never had a problem, tin darkens as it ages-can't do squat about it, and will need to be renewed after 5 or so years of use in the home. There are many retinners available...again use the internet. If you really love cooking, nothing sounds like food sauteeing in a tin lined copper pan...music to your ears, really. Ruffoni and Puppeni from Italy are less rustic in appearence, but beautifully crafted medium weight copper cookware.

I know this beacuse I have invested in good copper cookware and use it daily. It is beautiful and most excellent to cook with. And if you can afford top line AllClad, you can afford good copper.

Beware what looks like a heavy copper pan but is light weight. Some of this from Alsace was circulating stores and is not good for cooking. Beware copper plated or electroplated tin linings...no durability, no use.

What of AllClad or Calphalon copper lines...or other companies claiming copper in their pans...CIA Master's collection, Daniel Bollud collection etc. The copper component is thin, but real. Basically these are quality aluminum pans, and the copper if anything further evens out the responsivness. Are they really worth the extra $$$. I put my money with the heavy 2.5mm commercial French and Belgium pans which are about the same cost. I'll be willing them to my ancestors!

ok ... where to shop for it... online...

Copper cookware, copper kitchenware, copper pans, copper pots, falk copper cookware

All Clad Cookware, Gourmet cookware, Cutlery, Shun Knives, Wusthof Knives Global Knives, Le Creuset, Chocolate Fountains and More . Featuring All Clad, John Boos Kitchen Furniture

Lara Copper Cookware - All products handmade.

Buy Copper Cookware Dot Com

and often: smart bargains, Marshalls, various Kitchen stores like CHefs Catalogue, Cooking.com, Williams Sanoma, Kitchen Kapers, etc.

 

[lulu]

Robo, thats a great post, thank you. I am going to take time to rereat it, rather than skim, which I just did, so I'll reread and look at the different options. Falk are the ones I have been drooling over for a while

 

[Robo410]

Falk sells directly in the UK and Italy (as well as France Germany and the US) They have excellent customer service. I have many of their pans and highly recommend them.

 

[7romanstatesmen]

wow, thank you for all the very informative replies. i am in the process of reading through them now, as well as all the links that were provided. i believe that i'll stay away from the dishwasher for now. thanks again!

cheers,
miles

 

[Candocook]

.

. i think it's stainless steel on the inside (the surface is covered with circular scores that resemble machined metal, not suggesting that it is, that's just the best way to describe it). i only want to avoid corroding it due to some unforseen effect of dishwashing detergent, or some other condition found inside dishwashers. all imput is appreciated, thanks!

cheers,
miles[/quote]

I think I have a definitive answer for you from your above description. I have a catalana from Portugal that is copper and with the above described "pattern". The interior is tin.

Mine says:Our copperware is made from the highest quality copper. The inside is tin to probide the ideal cominaton of heat conductin and a hygienic, practicl cooking surface.

1.never place the copperware ona flame in oven without liquid or grease inside
2.never use excessive heas
Never use metal tools for stirring. Plastic or wooden
Nevr use steel wool, abrasive powder/liquid or antything that will scratch and damge iether the copper or tin surface.

To remove lacquer
Use a pot with enough water sothe copperwar may be immersed completely. Bring water to a boil and dissolve baking soda (1TBS/qt.) . Immerse the copper in the boiling water for about 15 minutes.Do half at a time if your pot is too big for the water pan. The lacquer should begin to peel off. If it is stubborn, acetone will remove it.

 

[CookingBobby]

MetroKitchen has a good selection of Mauviel copper cookware which is very nice. Here's a link to their copper cookware care page.

 

[Robo410]

THe Catalana instructions are correct. And I simply can't understand a company laquering a cooking pot. They obviously believe that for export purposes, their ware is for decor in most homes. I just don't buy laquered copper after seeing my mom deal with a teakettle back in the 60s. Anyway, if you intend to use your copper for cooking, try to find unlaquered. Look for tarnish! lol)

 

[Peggy Night]

Tin lined copper cookware

Hi there, I just wanted to let you know that I recently purchased some tin lined pans from Lara Copper, a Tasmanian company mentioned here - great looking hand made product but don't be fooled.. although I carefully followed their directions - low flame, no metal utensils etc. After heating both butter & oil for 2 minutes, then 3 minutes per side (I used a timer for this) for a thin schnitzel, I was horrified that the tin lining had melted! It's lucky I have good eyes, as there was actual molten tin on my schnitzel & at first I thought this was moisture.

If your pan is tin lined, I'd be extremely careful. And if you're purchasing any more, I'd do what I'm going to do and spend the extra on the Mauviel stainless lined pans.

Also, you can learn from my experience: Dont buy Lara Copper saucepans - the owner was extremely rude to me when I suggested his product was dangerous; only 8 minutes on a low flame uncovered - imagine if I'd used the lid for a sauce that I couldn't see the melted tin in!! The man is clearly proud of his product, but to put your pride above others' health is beyond comprehension. Also, If u read the small print on these pans, they state they're 2mm thick INCLUDING the tin lining, which is lathered on by hand - essentially, if you look up close, there's very little copper in them.

Thanks to others for their list of various manufacturers. Unfortunately I'm going to have to eat the 300$ I spent already and spend a whole lot more though *sigh..