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Old 02-15-2016, 03:08 PM   #41
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I married into a farm family. My father-in-law was the first farmer in this region to use anhydrous ammonia fertilizer, and it completely changed his way of looking at growing wheat and corn. His pioneering led to a change in the way the entire region was farmed.

He sprays for pests only when spraying is necessary because it's an extra cost. He doesn't farm any more himself, although he still lives on the farm and takes an active part in the efforts of the brothers who now lease his land. They are now using a manure compost mixture for fertilizer that they get from the many beef feed lots in the area, but any pest control is still done with FDA approved pesticides.

I understand better than I ever did what a tight margin there is between success and failure in farming, and the added cost of trying to grow organically would bankrupt him. Keep in mind that I am talking about dry land grain farming - wheat, corn and millet - no irrigation is possible. He is totally dependent on rainfall and around here it can be hit or miss. The average profit margin is minuscule. If everyone was as focused as you are on organics, he would be out of business, because he could not afford to farm that way.
Yes I understand that. This is not news to me.

I was not advocating all farmers become organic - merely stating my preference, given that we are lucky enough to have choice I would always choose to buy organic where I can.

Is that OK?
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Old 02-15-2016, 03:22 PM   #42
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PFOA unfortunately IS emitted during cooking with teflon non stick cookware but at low emissions. Personally I would rather have 0 levels in my food.
PFOAs don't go into the food, they go into the air, so when you are cooking with a teflon coated pan, just wear one of these:

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Old 02-15-2016, 03:47 PM   #43
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Haha...one of your links is from a genetic company...hmm. Biaised? Much?

Nothing to do with safety - I just prefer to eat as naturally as possible!
Do you mean the Genetic Literacy Project? It's not a company. It's a group of mostly scientists who primarily do research in the area of bioengineering. They're the ones with the expertise on the issue.

Did you read the articles? There is nothing natural about using rotenone or pyrethrin as pesticides, which organic farmers do.
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Old 02-15-2016, 05:28 PM   #44
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i need to add my own 2 cents to this discussion. First, as was stated, all commercially sold pans are safe for cooking use. If a pan maker were found to be suing hazardous materials in the pan construction, they would be chastised severely by EPA, USDA, Consumer Fraud, etc. However, that doesn't mean they are all as good as each other.

My thoughts on the matter:

Cast iron - the iron is sealed in a layer of carbon after the pan is properly seasoned. This carbon is slippery and renders the pan virtually non-stick. Acidic and alkali substances never touch the metal. Cast iron, when brought to temperature, grills and browns better that other pans due to its ability to hold heat. That is, iron is a poor conductor of heat and electricity. It takes significant heat to get the pan to temperature. There will be hot-spots on the cooking surface due to its poor heat conducting properties. The same is true of Stainless Steel and high carbon steal pans.

High Carbon Steel - hears more quickly than does cast iron, but otherwise is the same. It too requires proper seasoning.

Stainless Steel - When heated to cooking temperature, then adding oil to lightly coat the cooking surface, then adding the food, SS is as non-stick as are most pans. Unlike cast iron, the metal resists rusting and staining. the base metal can corrode, discolor, and/or pit. Like properly seasoned CI, high carbon steel, and mineral pans, they are non-reactive with foods, and can be used for both high, and low PH foods.

Aluminum - people have the erroneous that aluminum won't rust. They are correct, though it does corrode quickly when in contact with salt and water, or corrosive PH foods. Bare aluminum will leach into foods, just as will iron and steel materials. The pans are good conductors fo heat, and so maintain a more uniform cooking temperature that their iron-based cousins.

Copper - Copper is highly susceptible to corrosion, and must be tinned to be safe for cooking. Copper is a heavy metal. Consumption of copper can be poisonous. It has the highest thermal conductivity of metals commonly used for cooking vessels, followed by aluminum. It is often sandwiched between sheets of steel to better distribute the heat through the pan.

Teflon - PTFE - A non-stick coating that is applied to a metal substrate. It's slippery stuff and can out-gas poisonous fumes if overheated. Used properly, it is safe, and is ideal for making omelets, fried eggs, pancakes, crepe's, etc. It is used over a low to medium flame and so is not great for browning meats and veggies. A problem with Teflon is that it is relatively soft and can easily be damaged by misuse. Like all pans, teflon must have a light coating of oil on it to work properly.

Most metal pans can be nearly ass non-stick, or even more so than Teflon if proper technique is used.

Ceramic pans are the new kid on the block. Ceramic coating are heat-safe, and are much harder and more durable than Teflon or its cousins. The pans need a bit of oil in them to attain their non-stick properties. I've used them, but not the cheap ones. I suspect the cheaper ceramic pans won't provide good wear or good non-stick characteristics. The saute' pan I used was good quality, with sloping sides, and the food moved around the cooking surface effortlessly.

One more tip: There are others here who will say I'm crazy to say this, but aluminum pans (without non-stick coatings) work better when seasoned, just like you would season cast iron or high-carbon steel. The patina that is formed is the same as that formed on the ferrous pans. I know this because I did it, and the aluminum pan I'd purchased stated that the pan needed to be seasoned for best cooking results.

I didn't look up any of this, but give my summation of the different pans from over thirty-five years of cooking experience, and many experiments.

I've not found the need to purchase the high-end pans, except for my lasagna pan, but have used them at other people's homes. I find that a three-hundred dollar frying pan cooks no better that a twenty dollar cast-iron frying pan. I normally cook over a gas flame, and have to take care not to use too much heat. When I get impatient, I burn things. That's not the fault of the pan, but the fault of the cook.

Each type of pan that I have listed has its strengths, and weaknesses. All work well, and are safe when used properly, and for the kinds of foods that they are designed to cook.

I hope this little dissertation is helpful.

Um, maybe that was a dollars worth of discussion rather than 2 cents. Ahhhahahaha!

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North
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Old 02-15-2016, 05:45 PM   #45
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Wow - brill post Chief and thanks for getting this thread back on track.
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Old 02-15-2016, 08:23 PM   #46
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Wow - brill post Chief and thanks for getting this thread back on track.
I guess that means you didn't read the articles. Brill
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Old 02-16-2016, 05:39 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Chief Longwind Of The North View Post
Ceramic pans are the new kid on the block. Ceramic coating are heat-safe, and are much harder and more durable than Teflon or its cousins. The pans need a bit of oil in them to attain their non-stick properties. I've used them, but not the cheap ones. I suspect the cheaper ceramic pans won't provide good wear or good non-stick characteristics. The saute' pan I used was good quality, with sloping sides, and the food moved around the cooking surface effortlessly.

Seeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North
I have been thinking about your appraisal of ceramic pans since there has been some feedback on this thread all giving negative experiences.

I would welcome further feedback from RPCookin and Sir Loin Of Beef as to whether you used the cheaper ceramic pan or not.
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Old 02-16-2016, 11:54 AM   #48
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I have been thinking about your appraisal of ceramic pans since there has been some feedback on this thread all giving negative experiences.

I would welcome further feedback from RPCookin and Sir Loin Of Beef as to whether you used the cheaper ceramic pan or not.
I posted earlier what brand my wife bought. I don't know if it was cheap or expensive. I don't use it, because I'm not afraid of Teflon, and Teflon is a far more effective nonstick surface.
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Old 02-16-2016, 12:33 PM   #49
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Everything you come in contact with, in this entire world is chemically based, including water, organic foods, metals, rocks, air, etc. Chemicals are simply the scientific names of the materials of the Earth, and universe. Water's chemical name is H2O, or dihydrogen monoxide. Table salt is sodium chloride, or NACL. The chemical names of compounds found in fruits and veggies would scare anyone afraid of chemicals. Yet, these develop naturally to protect the fruits and veggies from sunburn, and to promote various processes for proper growth of the plant and the fruiting body. There is a special part of chemistry that works with carbon based biology of plants and animals called organic chemistry. On this planet, all life that we know of is carbon based.

As far as organic gardening goes, the organic fruits and veggies, an critters, grow more slowly, allowing the plant to absorb more nutrients from the soil. This generally improves the health-giving qualities of the edible parts, and the flavor, as it has time to mature and build the chemical compounds that give the characteristic flavors of the plants.

Granted, some of the processes used in standard U.S. farm practices creates more food per acre, but also leaches the soil nutrients over time, making that ground useless. And, if you state that more fertilizer will restore those nutrients, remember that the fertilizers are normally salts, and that the salt buildup in the soil, again over time, will render the soil incapable of growing anything.

There are better ways to farm, and still produce the necessary food we need, without harming the soil, or leeching out nutrients. Some of these are now being explored by commercial farmers, as well as home gardeners.

We all need to realize that what we have isn't the best possible solution to food availability. And we have to keep an open mind that there are probably better ways to do what we do.

I believe that as long as money is the prime motivating factor for doing anything in this world, maximizing profits will always take precedence over creating the best possible product. That, of course is MHO.

I do understand the farmer's plight. Enough money has to be made to pay the bills, and purchase seed for next year's crop, and hopefully have a little left over for spending money. There are others who dictate what the farmer can receive for his/her hard work. Again, IMHO, we, both as a species, and a society, have made our world over complicated, rendering all but the upper 1%, slaves to the wage, and accepting what we are given for our labors, with a smile.

Ok, I'm getting off of my soapbox now.

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Old 02-16-2016, 01:31 PM   #50
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I have a large collection of All Clad and they can't be beat. Even if one gets a small amount to get started you won't be sorry. Their non-stick is the best ever, too. They don't wear out and are so easy to clean. With that said, I have a large amount of cast iron which I use for stews, chili, bacon frying, and fish fries; muffin pans, eble skiver, and corn bread stick pans. It's fun to use them all. I look at thrift shops, garage sales, and antique stores but the days of fining them cheaply is over but one can get lucky. I found a heavy no name cast iron skillet for 50 cents at garage sale a few years ago.
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Old 02-16-2016, 01:43 PM   #51
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The chemical names of compounds found in fruits and veggies would scare anyone afraid of chemicals. Yet, these develop naturally to protect the fruits and veggies from sunburn, and to promote various processes for proper growth of the plant and the fruiting body.
They're also natural pesticides and fungicides.

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As far as organic gardening goes, the organic fruits and veggies, an critters, grow more slowly, allowing the plant to absorb more nutrients from the soil. This generally improves the health-giving qualities of the edible parts, and the flavor, as it has time to mature and build the chemical compounds that give the characteristic flavors of the plants.
Organic plants grow more slowly? The organic farmer who gave the lecture on vegetable gardening in my master gardener class didn't mention that. Sorry, Chief, but I don't think that's accurate. The way I understand it, plants that grow slowly aren't getting enough nutrients.
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Old 02-16-2016, 03:34 PM   #52
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I would welcome further feedback from RPCookin and Sir Loin Of Beef as to whether you used the cheaper ceramic pan or not.
I bought the only ceramic coated pans available at the time, the original Greenpan, and I bought them at Bed Bugs & Beyond, so they were not cheap! At first, only eggs would stick to the damn things, but after a few uses, EVERYTHING stuck! I got so disgusted with them that I tossed them into my recyclables trash can and went out and bought a set of sauté pans at Target that have the ceramic where it belongs, on the outside. The insides were the traditional non-stick coating and I have been using them for three years now and they still release everything I cook in them without an argument.
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Old 02-16-2016, 05:19 PM   #53
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They're also natural pesticides and fungicides.



Organic plants grow more slowly? The organic farmer who gave the lecture on vegetable gardening in my master gardener class didn't mention that. Sorry, Chief, but I don't think that's accurate. The way I understand it, plants that grow slowly aren't getting enough nutrients.
I am no master gardener and made that statement based on an article about organic gardening, and the difference in plants grown organically. But it was only one source. I should have done further research on the matter. I may have had a personal bias when reading it, and it said what I wanted to hear. On the other hand, I too have witnessed quick growth using rabbit manure to fortify my garden soil (in combination with rotted horse manure). The plants grew fast and produce wonderfully. I guess my own observations show that my one point was invalid. Thank you for getting me to think a little. I usually try not to post anything inaccurate, but when shooting from the hip, well, I guess I can be gullible, or even flattered into believing something. That's not a good thing.

Seeeeeya; from a humbled Chief Longwind of the North
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Old 02-16-2016, 05:57 PM   #54
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As always, I'm impressed with your knowledge and open-mindedness, Chief
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Old 02-16-2016, 06:13 PM   #55
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Everything you come in contact with, in this entire world is chemically based, including water, organic foods, metals, rocks, air, etc.

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North
Yes of course but there's a huge difference between naturally occurring chemicals and synthetic chemical residues (e.g. from pesticides) on food. Thankfully we have choice between buying a more natural product or not.

As mentioned earlier, I am not advocating that all farmers go organic. I know full well that this would not work given our current population. I was just trying to say that I prefer organic produce and that seems to be heresy here for some weird reason!

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Old 02-16-2016, 06:59 PM   #56
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Yes of course but there's a huge difference between naturally occurring chemicals and synthetic chemical residues (e.g. from pesticides) on food.
No, there is not. Chemically, they are *exactly* the same. Naturally occurring chemicals can be pretty darn dangerous, such as poison ivy, foxglove, arsenic and others.

I don't have any hope that you'll actually read these; I'm putting them here for people who are willing to learn.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/...oxic-chemicals

http://ipcblog.org/2011/09/06/mother...es-most-toxic/

Also - the dose makes the poison
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Old 02-16-2016, 07:03 PM   #57
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Maybe this will show up better.
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Old 02-16-2016, 07:16 PM   #58
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GotGarlic - you are trying to undermine me yet again! Of course I know that some foods contain dubious chemicals/toxins e.g. the green bits on potatoes. Everyone knows that there are poisonous plants too... a no brainer!

You are superbly missing my point I feel. Apples with synthetically chemically sprayed have pesticide residues on the skin. I don't CARE how low the dosage is, given the choice, I prefer to bite into an apple that grows as nature intended. I don't want the taste or the thought of that unwelcome addition thank you. Is it a crime or something to prefer organic produce? Sheesh.
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Old 02-16-2016, 07:23 PM   #59
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Right. Fruits and vegetables grown without pesticides are so much more appetizing.
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Old 02-16-2016, 07:23 PM   #60
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Sniping stops now or this thread will be closed with apologies to the OP. Back to the topic at hand please, the best cookware.
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