"Discover Cooking, Discuss Life."

Go Back   Discuss Cooking - Cooking Forums > General Cooking Information > Cookware and Accessories > Knives
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 12-10-2009, 04:51 AM   #21
Head Chef
 
Rob Babcock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Big Sky Country
Posts: 1,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by justplainbill View Post
Thinner is often good but for some uses a thicker spine (5 mm / .2 ") is more useful.
Well, again I only said thinner as a rule. Thicker can be better for some things but it's rarely better simply for being thicker. Certain styles of knives are inherently thick, such as a Western Deba. Knives like Debas tend also to be thick, and a Yanagiba will usually be pretty thick at the spine.

I do still keep one Wusthof in my work kit, an 8" Chef that I use for things like lobster and frozen food. It is a tad thicker than my J-knives but mostly it's much softer; that makes the difference. Before long I expect to have a Tojiro Western Deba- once I get that I'll probably ditch the Wustie.
__________________
If we're not supposed to eat animals, then how come they're made out of meat?
Rob Babcock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2009, 09:14 PM   #22
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salem, Or./continuous traveler
Posts: 1
I've cooked onboard Alaskan fishing boats, restaurants, and, of course, home and entertaining. In my experience,Henkel's makes a premium knife that comes in many varieties, sizes, and purpose directed. They are not the most expensive knives on the shelf but they are very good and will stand the test of time and retain their edge.
As to differing sizes for you and your DH, absolutly! You need to feel comfortable with the balance and weight of any tool and the right knife will go a long way toward keeping your fingers intact. I've carried six knives with me no matter where I've cooked and my own chef's knife is indespensible. If you need to discuss the details of my six knives, just let me know.
Elyse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 02:46 PM   #23
Cook
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Babcock View Post

If you want a conventional German knife you can't go wrong with Messermeister. Wusthof is also good. J.A. Henkels makes great knives so long as you avoid the International series and stick with their higher end offerings.
Why stay away from J.A. Henkels International series? Curious. I was looking at a set that seemed nice, and while pricier than my current very old knives that need replacing, not something that I can't afford.

BTW: I looked at the sharpening system you recommended. Seems nice. Do you use this with a sharpening steel?

Carol
sadievan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 07:27 PM   #24
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6
blades of glory

I am not actually a assistant cook (not sure how that got there and not sure how to change it) actually I am a fairly experienced amateur cook, I am however an industrial engineer by trade. I have for quite a few years design and build my own knives and have on occasion made gifts for friends and associates. And this is what I have to say about knives in general.

Japanese steels or knives are my preference vs the european blades, why? craftsmanship and quality steels of which many are not even available to traditional Euro commercial companies. But not all Japanese knives are created equal, I found the workman ship on some of the so called Damascus blades MAC's are flat out shoddy at best! As well, you need to make certain if you take the plunge and pay serious money for some Japanese knives that you get what you pay for! Often you will see claims for exotic steels or Damascus type blades that are nothing more then designs embossed on the blade( buyer beware). But good knives using G10 are top notch extremely sharp and hold the edge for ages, more exotic powdered steel types like ZDP 182 and Cowry X are the very best but are a fortune and very difficult to resharpen but are beyond sharp and are so hard it seems like they don't ever dull. I made a ZDP182 chef knife and gave it to a friend ( a real chef ) well over a year ago, he still has not sharpened it..
In the end just make certain it feels right and uses a good steel, if you have the patience and the funds often its best to have something made for you, there many excellent knife smiths out there often putting out products similar in price to commercial offerings. One of my faves is haslinger knives. Check him out!
Bakersdirtydozen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 07:43 PM   #25
Certified Pretend Chef
 
Andy M.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 48,015
The title under your member name is assigned automatically based on the number of posts you've made.
__________________
"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." -Carl Sagan
Andy M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 07:49 PM   #26
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA and FRANCE
Posts: 17
Send a message via AIM to HNLute Send a message via Yahoo to HNLute
Some practical advice about your knives, the MOST important thing is how well they fit your hand and how easy they are to do the tasks they are called upon to do. Name brands are good knives else they would not still be around. Look at them like they are a long term investment, they are going to last you for years and years, some of mine are 40 years old and are used daily in my cooking chores. Keeping good knives good...sharp and functional requires attention to their care every time you use them. Use the steel every time you use it and it will remain sharp for a long time, ignore that step and soon, no matter what company or individual produced the blade and it will become less sharp and less useful. It is not necessary to spend a fortune on each knife or buy a matching set unless you are driven to such an expenditure. Recently Cook's Illustrated has tested knives made by Victoronix with well seated fibrox handles and found them equal to the tasks every chef has before him/her for a fraction of the expensive knives compared with them. I would advise going to a knife shop, talking with the staff and handling the knives before you lay out your hard earned money, get ones that fit your hand and style of cooking. A chef's knife, a boning knife, a paring knife, a carving knife will do to start.
Good Luck and Good Cooking!
__________________
I'd Rather Cook Than Eat!
HNLute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 03:43 AM   #27
Head Chef
 
Rob Babcock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Big Sky Country
Posts: 1,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadievan View Post
Why stay away from J.A. Henkels International series? Curious. I was looking at a set that seemed nice, and while pricier than my current very old knives that need replacing, not something that I can't afford.

BTW: I looked at the sharpening system you recommended. Seems nice. Do you use this with a sharpening steel?

Carol
The International Series aren't all bad, some of them are okay. But the lower end of that line is comprised of really cheap stamped junk. Bear in mind, a knife doesn't have to be drop-forged to be good (the best knives in the world aren't, IMOHO) but cheap stamped knives are pretty sad. For German knives, stick to the forged ones.

As to the steels, which ones are you referring to? The EMP is pretty simple, draw your knife thru the unit at about a 45 degree angle. There's a video on his site. A ceramic or glass steel is best used as follows: Place a towel or other non-skid mat down on the counter. Hold the hone in a "hammer grip" upside down, ie with the handle on top and the rod hanging down. Hold it straight up and down with the tip on the towel. Very lightly run your knife along the length of the hone, heel to tip. The angle used should reflect the angle on the knife. You don't have to sweat how precise your holding, just make sure to go very lightly, and use an angle a touch steeper than the angle on the knife. For example, a German sharpened at 22.5 degrees per side should be (lightly!) hones at 23-25 degrees. You want to gently push the steel back into alignment. What you don't want to do is whack it on the steel as fast as you can like you see those guys on Food Network do. That's TV, not reality.
__________________
If we're not supposed to eat animals, then how come they're made out of meat?
Rob Babcock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 10:21 AM   #28
Head Chef
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Richmond, Va
Posts: 1,313
As an amateur cook, and less of a knife guy, here are my 2 cents worth:

After using a set of Forschners I acquired during my stint in a packing house 45 years ago, I purchased a VG 10 Kanetsune on sale on the advice of Rob in a thread a year or so ago. I later went back and purchased the entire 5 knife set. Thanks Rob.

Although the Forschners are very good knives, the difference between the two is night and day. Out of the box the Kanetsunes were the sharpest knives I have ever used. They are still sharp today, although they will need touch up soon.

I find the pinch grip is pretty much automatic with sharp knives and impossible with dull.

I find that 95% of my cutting is done with a 240 gyuto, with the remainder a small petty. I would recommend starting with these two. I do not like, and seldom use, the santou, but I believe that is personal preference. I would like to have a smaller petty (paring) knife.

My knives live in a wood cutting block, my hand, or on the rear of a wood cutting board. I use the Forschners for opening packages, scraping bones, etc.

Conclusion? IMO 2 good knives beat a boxed set by a mile. As a first knife I would buy the largest Japanese chefs knife that I felt comfortable with, and the best I could afford. My large chefs knife works just fine to slice bread and other soft items, and to thinly slice meat. Second knife would be a small petty. With these two, you will be able to perform nearly all kitchen chores. A santou is another option, but I find that I can do anything with a chefs knife that I can with a santou, and the reverse is not true.

If you use a pinch grip, handle is not as important as balance. Pinch grip comes naturally if your knife is sharp.

A good steel is important. Mine is a very old Dick that has worn very smooth over time. Those designed to tear away steel will not straighten an edge. Another reason to avoid a boxed set.

Watch the sales. The Kanetsunes were purchased at less than half the lowest price I can now find.

I have all the tools necessary to sharpen knives, but not the skills. I would gladly pay for a day long learning session with a really good sharpener in a classroom setting. I don't even know how sharp is sharp.

Forschners are very good entry level knives. I prefer the rosewood handles, but that is a matter of opinion. They will not give as much satisfaction as a good quality VG 10 laminate blade.

All above is opinion based on nothing scientific, and is just observation.
Bigjim68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 02:33 PM   #29
Cook
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Babcock View Post
The International Series aren't all bad, some of them are okay. But the lower end of that line is comprised of really cheap stamped junk. Bear in mind, a knife doesn't have to be drop-forged to be good (the best knives in the world aren't, IMOHO) but cheap stamped knives are pretty sad. For German knives, stick to the forged ones.

As to the steels, which ones are you referring to? The EMP is pretty simple, draw your knife thru the unit at about a 45 degree angle. There's a video on his site. A ceramic or glass steel is best used as follows: Place a towel or other non-skid mat down on the counter. Hold the hone in a "hammer grip" upside down, ie with the handle on top and the rod hanging down. Hold it straight up and down with the tip on the towel. Very lightly run your knife along the length of the hone, heel to tip. The angle used should reflect the angle on the knife. You don't have to sweat how precise your holding, just make sure to go very lightly, and use an angle a touch steeper than the angle on the knife. For example, a German sharpened at 22.5 degrees per side should be (lightly!) hones at 23-25 degrees. You want to gently push the steel back into alignment. What you don't want to do is whack it on the steel as fast as you can like you see those guys on Food Network do. That's TV, not reality.
Hi Rob,

The Henckels set I was looking at is at Costco. Here is the link.

Costco - J.A. Henckels International 10-piece Forged Knife Set

As far as sharpening stones go. I would like to start to try them on my old set. What kind do you use and what grits? Am new to all this knife stuff.

Carol
sadievan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2010, 12:26 AM   #30
Head Chef
 
Rob Babcock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Big Sky Country
Posts: 1,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigjim68 View Post
After using a set of Forschners I acquired during my stint in a packing house 45 years ago, I purchased a VG 10 Kanetsune on sale on the advice of Rob in a thread a year or so ago. I later went back and purchased the entire 5 knife set. Thanks Rob.
Yeah, that was The Mother of All Deals! Sadly I only got the 210mm before they sold out- I sure wish I'd have scored the whole set! They're fantastic knives. I gave mine to my GF shortly after getting it, planning to get a couple more for myself, but I wasn't quick enough. In the year or so she's had it I've sharpened it once and it's extremely sharp. I've subtly tried to see if she'd "rather have something else" but it's always no dice!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigjim68 View Post
Watch the sales. The Kanetsunes were purchased at less than half the lowest price I can now find.
Sadly that's very true. I've often seen them at 3X the price we got ours for! Never are they sold for less than twice what I paid. Truly one of the greatest knife bargains I've ever seen.
__________________
If we're not supposed to eat animals, then how come they're made out of meat?
Rob Babcock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2010, 01:27 PM   #31
Chef Extraordinaire
 
Cooking Goddess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Body in MA ~ Heart in OH
Posts: 14,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakechef View Post
.................compared to a good clean cut from a proper knife that will often heal much quicker.
Well I can vouch for that statement. Hubby gave me a very nice Zwilling J. A. Henckels paring knife for Christmas. (That knife alone might be worth as much as all my other knives!) While cleaning the blade I managed to cut my thumb near the base...didn't realize it was sharp all the way to the handle. Did this on New Year's day. Today - what cut? Meanwhile, I'm half-way through week two trying to heal a string cut...
__________________
"The essence of America - that which really unites us - is not ethnicity, or nationality or religion - it is an an idea - and what an idea it is: That you can come from humble circumstances and do great things. That it doesn't matter where you came from but where you are going."~ Condoleezza Rice
Cooking Goddess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2010, 01:49 AM   #32
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 39
If your husband cooks as much as you do, he should have his own set of knives. I don't think I have EVER found a complete-brand set of cutlery that had any more than two knives worth their salt. Most people like your self will be very happy with a Wusthof or Zwilling JA Heinkles 8" Chef's knife and a 3-3.5" paring knife. That can be had for 120.00 or less for the pair... They'll give you a lifetime of reliable service and all you need to do is steel them from time to time, and have them professionally tuned as you see fit (either 6 or 12 month intervals, usually, depending on how much you cook and how you treat your knives) - Invest in a good end-grain cutting board, a quality steel and a knife block. You don't have to buy a 600 dollar Japanese knife if yoy like that style, but don't buy a crap knife no matter what you do. Steel is key, and those 18/10 kitchenAid knives just won't go the distance - so if the knife is at WalMart, Target or K-Mart - Don't buy it. Stick with a good online source (CutleryandMore, Wilson-Sonoma, Sur La Table, ect... )

You may like the 8" Global Chef's knife as a balance between small hands and Japanese styling; My wife uses an 8" Furi, and I have used the Wusthof 8" classic and Cordon Bleu knives for years... perfectly good knives. Really it's a matter of a good cutting surface (Wood board), using your steel properly and buying any of the mid-range quality brands that best fit your hand. My suggestion is you try a Santoku style knife, and see of your hubby likes the more classic German or French style. For a paring knife - IMHO there are two that can't be beat: a 3" Zwilling (JA Heinkles) Pairing Knife, and a 3.5" Wusthof Cordon Bleu Pairing knife -- I say this because the 3" knife I use frequently, but I use the 3.5" one (with no bolster) for turning mushrooms and other delicate cuts... The Heinkles has a longer handle, and the Wusthof has a shorter handle, so again - you and hubby should play with the sets at a reputable store, and see what you like. If you are frequent guests at any private establishment, the cooks will be happy to let you play with their knives... Most have theor own equipment and you'll have a good cross-section to play around with.

1. Quality of Brand -- Don't get Fabreware, Kitchenaid, ect... but don't feel like a Shun or Hattori is the only option... Wusthof and Heinkles have been around a long time for a reason.
2. Use wood and only wood cutting boards (yeah, plastic for meat, ect... but never glass/marble/counter-top/plate/inside-of-pan/ect...)
3. Steel as needed and watch tastygarlic's YT on steeling knives - or any other person that will show you the proper method.
4. Hand wash/dry always - and send out for maintenance as you feel they need tuning. Chances are someone on this forum will do them for free.
trooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2010, 02:06 AM   #33
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 39
[QUOTE=tzakiel;865056]

That's it. Those 3 knives will do everything you need to do.

/QUOTE]

What more needs to be said?
trooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2010, 02:15 AM   #34
Head Chef
 
Rob Babcock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Big Sky Country
Posts: 1,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by trooper View Post
I don't think I have EVER found a complete-brand set of cutlery that had any more than two knives worth their salt.
Bingo! Block sets are largely a waste of money. They may look like a good deal til you factor in all the junk they include that you don't need. Nearly all of them include a steel, and in 99.5% of them that steel is junk (even the more expensive brands like Shun or Wusthof). They usually have a lot of overlap, too. For instance, many will have several paring knives that differ only in the type of point or 1/2" length, or slicers almost the same size as the chef's knife, etc. Most have a pair of kitchen shears which is also a waste of money. Yeah, kitchen shears are handy, but not at the price you pay with a block. Including steak knives also pads the count without giving you much value. For the most part, 95% of home kitchen work can be done with a set of 3 knives: A chef's knife, a bread knife & a paring knife. Add a good swivel peeler and you're up to around 99%. You're better off spending your money on a few good ones as opposed to a big block full of mediocre knives you don't need.

I'm a big fan of Japanese knives but I'll have to agree with Trooper- Wusthof and Henckels (& I'd add Messermeister) make fine knives and will serve you well. For many home cooks they're probably a better fit than a Japanese knife that will require more skill to maintain properly. The Le
Cordon Bleu knives were the best Wusthof made IMO, too bad they discontinued them.
__________________
If we're not supposed to eat animals, then how come they're made out of meat?
Rob Babcock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2010, 07:10 PM   #35
Sous Chef
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selkie View Post
After 10 years (and replacing my knife every two years) I will have a $100 total investment in a knife that is never more than 2 years old and probably never needs a professional sharpening.

I'm not saying that professional grade knives aren't worth their substantial investment. But for me, someone who isn't a professional cook but does claim to be gourmet-inclined, and who is a kitchen gadget hound, some investments just make better sense than others.
It sounds like you're a home cook. Me too. How do you wear out a knife in two years?

Edit: Just saw this: "The difference being I renew mine because the steel admittedly isn't as high a quality as yours, and would hardly be worth the cost of having a professional sharpen it."

Why don't you sharpen it yourself and save $20 every two years for the rest of your life?
buzzard767 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2010, 09:15 PM   #36
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 19
I am just an average over the top gadget junkie. I would pick up a set of Calphlon Katana knives. Great deals on E-bay or Bed Bath and Beyond with coupon. Great set for the home cook.
Tom421 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 05:05 PM   #37
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Babcock View Post

I'm a big fan of Japanese knives but I'll have to agree with Trooper- Wusthof and Henckels (& I'd add Messermeister) make fine knives and will serve you well. For many home cooks they're probably a better fit than a Japanese knife that will require more skill to maintain properly. The Le Cordon Bleu knives were the best Wusthof made IMO, too bad they discontinued them.
I did some checking and the Le Cordon Bleu model knives are almost completely off market now - wow... I have Cordon model 3.5" pairing and 8" Chef's. The chef knife is a backup for work now, but the paring knife is still my primary. . . Not sure now if I should find/order ten more of them now. My backup is a Global GS-38 pairing that used to belong to Mrs. trooper...
trooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 05:16 PM   #38
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by hihowareyou View Post
Thoughts on brands such as Shun, Global, and any other fairly common japanese brands?
Global's are at a good price point for "Something not German, but not traditional Japanese". The Global Chef's knife is nice - I played with one at Sur la Table; destroyed some carrots, oranges and apples with it - I liked the way it had a heel like a German chef's knife (sans bolster), but a tip more like a Gyotu - not so curved but not flat like a Santoku. It was also thin, but still felt sturdy enough. Can't remember what sizes they come in, I think I had the standard 8" model; If they were selling a 9" - 9.5" size that day, I would have impulse-bought one.

The more you go in the direction of Tijoro, Shun, Minsono, ect... the more you're dealing with "professional grade knives" in the sense that their sharp heels and usually longer, thinner blades are not-so-user-friendly to new cooks or inexperienced hands. Most cooks who love Japanese knives have migrated from Western-style knives over time... But there are a heck of a lot of excellent, experienced chefs that still use and swear by classic German/French-style cutlery. I'd start there and then as you use your knives, and eventually pick up someone elses and go "Hey, this is exactly what I am looking for!" then you'll know to "buy-up".
trooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 05:27 PM   #39
Assistant Cook
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadievan View Post
Why stay away from J.A. Henkels International series? Curious. I was looking at a set that seemed nice, and while pricier than my current very old knives that need replacing, not something that I can't afford.

BTW: I looked at the sharpening system you recommended. Seems nice. Do you use this with a sharpening steel?

Carol
The price those JA International sets go for is so close to actual Zwilling sets, it's just not worth it. I think Heinkles lost a lot of credibility when they launched that line... only to make it worse by launching an even cheaper stamped-blade line right after that.

They way to tell what brand you have is by looking for the little "people" icons on the side of the blade. J.A. Zwilling ("The Twins") brand will have two little "people" as insignia, and the International (Spanish manufacture) will have just one little person icon.

If you are going to spend money on quality cutlery - make sure you get actual quality cutlery - Otherwise you could just go to Walmart and get some forged Kitchenaid knives for under fifty dollars.

Still suggest you but a knife BLOCK from either the goodwill or yard sale, or even order one - then populate that block with just what you need. a JA Zwilling 10" Slicer and 3" Pairing Knife sit in my block, they are perfect for me, but maybe you would get more use from a longer paring knife and don't ever see a need for a slicer... That's what the empty block is for - Just hand-select only the perfect knives for you. And always keep one cheap paring knife in there just so the other good knives aren't abused!
trooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 09:40 PM   #40
Cook
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by trooper View Post
The price those JA International sets go for is so close to actual Zwilling sets, it's just not worth it. I think Heinkles lost a lot of credibility when they launched that line... only to make it worse by launching an even cheaper stamped-blade line right after that.

They way to tell what brand you have is by looking for the little "people" icons on the side of the blade. J.A. Zwilling ("The Twins") brand will have two little "people" as insignia, and the International (Spanish manufacture) will have just one little person icon.

If you are going to spend money on quality cutlery - make sure you get actual quality cutlery - Otherwise you could just go to Walmart and get some forged Kitchenaid knives for under fifty dollars.

Still suggest you but a knife BLOCK from either the goodwill or yard sale, or even order one - then populate that block with just what you need. a JA Zwilling 10" Slicer and 3" Pairing Knife sit in my block, they are perfect for me, but maybe you would get more use from a longer paring knife and don't ever see a need for a slicer... That's what the empty block is for - Just hand-select only the perfect knives for you. And always keep one cheap paring knife in there just so the other good knives aren't abused!
Thanks Trooper. That is exactly what we decided to do. Picked up a block the other day. We looked at the Henckels International set that Costco had, but didn't really like it. Both hubby and myself like the feel of the Wusthof Classic 8" chefs knife. I think that is what we will start out with. We will probably buy them little by little as we need them. When we looked at the sets, they came with knives we probably wouldn't use. For now we just got the block and are using our old knives. We just got a Syderco Sharpmaker and are practicing sharpening.

BTW: In your earlier post you mentioned you liked the Cordon Bleu line. Amazon.com has a few of them if you still want some.

Carol
sadievan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.