Is mornay sauce supposed to be slightly gritty?

[BAPyessir6]

Made a mornay sauce today, and at the end it was just slightly slightly gritty on my tongue. Is this usual with the texture, or did I do something wrong?

This is what I did.

3 Tbsp unsalted butter
3 Tbsp flour
2.25 cups milk
6 oz cheese, freshly grated. (I used a gruyere/cheddar combo)

Melt butter, add flour, cook 2 minutes until slightly nutty smell. Add milk slowly until mixed and smooth. I brought the milk mixture to a barely boil then, and removed it from the heat for about 30 seconds and added the cheese, stirring constantly, in 1/4ths. It was smooth and didn't split or anything, but it was still slightly gritty. Was the cheese I used wrong possibly?

 

[pictonguy]

Mornay sauce should be smooth and velvety. It could be a number of things and there really is no way of telling you why. Could be the roux, the proteins in the milk or cheese, tempering, like the milk should never come to the boil, etc.

 

[BAPyessir6]

Mornay sauce should be smooth and velvety. It could be a number of things and there really is no way of telling you why. Could be the roux, the proteins in the milk or cheese, tempering, like the milk should never come to the boil, etc.

Is mornay sauce supposed to taste like "punch you in the face" cheese, or more like subtle, more bechamel? Either way, I made mornay sauce again (I would say like 98 percent less gritty) and this is what I changed.

I changed my ratios (as per Kitchn recipe) Doubled the roux, so 6 tbsp flour/butter, 4.5 cup milk and 7 oz same cheese.

Made the bechamel and tasted it before I added the cheese to make sure that the bechamel was indeed smooth and not the problem. Whisked the cheese in slowly and voila! Now it is much smoother but does taste less cheesy. Success! Apparently too much cheese can make it feel grittier.

 

[caseydog]

Mornay sauce should be smooth and velvety. It could be a number of things and there really is no way of telling you why. Could be the roux, the proteins in the milk or cheese, tempering, like the milk should never come to the boil, etc.

Yeah, what he said. Well, mostly.

What cheeses did you use?

As for the roux, I came from cajun country, so I was never given a recipe. Making a good roux is something you have to do enough times until you reach that "aha" moment, and then you can make a roux in your sleep. Your nose is a good tool for making a roux, like your recipe said, it should lose the raw flour smell and take on a nutty smell. I personally don't use butter to make a roux, but if you do, keep everything moving.

Again BAPyessir, work on trusting your instincts.

As for your milk, add it a little at a time, and use cold milk. This is where I have a question for pictonguy... doesn't the roux/dairy mixture have to come to a low boil/simmer to thicken? I would never let it come to a rolling boil, and once it reached that "simmer" stage, I take it off the heat.

CD

 

[pictonguy]

Yeah, what he said. Well, mostly.

What cheeses did you use?

As for the roux, I came from cajun country, so I was never given a recipe. Making a good roux is something you have to do enough times until you reach that "aha" moment, and then you can make a roux in your sleep. Your nose is a good tool for making a roux, like your recipe said, it should lose the raw flour smell and take on a nutty smell. I personally don't use butter to make a roux, but if you do, keep everything moving.

Again BAPyessir, work on trusting your instincts.

As for your milk, add it a little at a time, and use cold milk. This is where I have a question for pictonguy... doesn't the roux/dairy mixture have to come to a low boil/simmer to thicken? I would never let it come to a rolling boil, and once it reached that "simmer" stage, I take it off the heat.

CD

Ok, you asked CD so now I'm going to get scientific on you, lol.

The molecular mechanics of thickening agents is based on their differences in how they gelatinize. Your probably thinking about cornstarch and unless it comes to a boil it doesn't thicken and that's because cornstarch requires 203F to release the amylose, a polymer that generates that gelatinization. Flour on the other hand requires around 150F.

Another point I'd like to make is ideally it's better to warm the milk before adding to the roux. This basically eliminates the temperature shock to the roux where cold milk cools the roux and can in some cases cause clumping as opposed to the milk being the same temp as the roux and the gelatinization is an easier transition. Basically warm milk integrates faster, hydrates starch evenly, and avoids lumps.

 

[pictonguy]

Is mornay sauce supposed to taste like "punch you in the face" cheese, or more like subtle, more bechamel? Either way, I made mornay sauce again (I would say like 98 percent less gritty) and this is what I changed.

I changed my ratios (as per Kitchn recipe) Doubled the roux, so 6 tbsp flour/butter, 4.5 cup milk and 7 oz same cheese.

Made the bechamel and tasted it before I added the cheese to make sure that the bechamel was indeed smooth and not the problem. Whisked the cheese in slowly and voila! Now it is much smoother but does taste less cheesy. Success! Apparently too much cheese can make it feel grittier.

Well, if it's an improvement then go with it.

Also, cheddar is not traditional or advisable which is based on the proteins in cheddar and how they're arranged that then can cause curdling which translates into graininess. Stay away from aged cheddar for sure for a bechamel and add all cheese into a bechamel grated and off the heat for best results, is what I would recommend.

 

[caseydog]

Ok, you asked CD so now I'm going to get scientific on you, lol.

The molecular mechanics of thickening agents is based on their differences in how they gelatinize. Your probably thinking about cornstarch and unless it comes to a boil it doesn't thicken and that's because cornstarch requires 203F to release the amylose, a polymer that generates that gelatinization. Flour on the other hand requires around 150F.

Another point I'd like to make is ideally it's better to warm the milk before adding to the roux. This basically eliminates the temperature shock to the roux where cold milk cools the roux and can in some cases cause clumping as opposed to the milk being the same temp as the roux and the gelatinization is an easier transition. Basically warm milk integrates faster, hydrates starch evenly, and avoids lumps.

I've never made a roux with corn starch. A slurry, yes, but not a roux.

I was taught that hot roux, cold milk means no lumps, and that has always worked for me. If it ain't broke, I don't fix it.

I'm not being argumentative, at least not intentionally. Thanks for your scientific response.

CD

 

[caseydog]

Well, if it's an improvement then go with it.

Also, cheddar is not traditional or advisable which is based on the proteins in cheddar and how they're arranged that then can cause curdling which translates into graininess. Stay away from aged cheddar for sure for a bechamel and add all cheese into a bechamel grated and off the heat for best results, is what I would recommend.

Yes, cheddar tastes good, but can be difficult to cook with. I learned that the hard way.

CD

 

[Meryl]

I've never made mornay sauce but I thought it was basically a bechamel with cream and egg yolks added, apart from grated gruyere cheese, being of French origins?

 

[pictonguy]

I've never made mornay sauce but I thought it was basically a bechamel with cream and egg yolks added, apart from grated gruyere cheese, being of French origins?

No, the French don't add eggs and cream to a mornay sauce. A mornay is based on a "mother" sauce which is a bechamel and always a roux with milk and generally the fat is butter. A mornay is a "derivative" of a bechamel by adding either gruyere or emmental.

The French also make a veloute which looks similar to a bechamel but uses stock instead of milk and this is where the French add eggs and cream to make their own "derivative" sauces of that veloute called Parisienne and Allemande for example which are used for dishes like chicken supreme and poached fish like sole, turbot or trout and vol-au-vents with chicken, veal, fish, that kind of thing. Very old school and very good eating too.

Both bechamel and veloute are 2 of the 5 French "mother" sauces, and will always be a foundation in French cooking.

 

[taxlady]

I've never made a roux with corn starch. A slurry, yes, but not a roux.

I was taught that hot roux, cold milk means no lumps, and that has always worked for me. If it ain't broke, I don't fix it.

I'm not being argumentative, at least not intentionally. Thanks for your scientific response.

CD

Chef John always says "hot roux, cold milk". That really surprised me. But, the times I have tried doing that, it has worked fine.

What else has always worked fine for me is adding cold roux to hot liquid. I used to make roux in biggish batches and keep them in the fridge. Then I could easily turn some stock or other hot liquid into gravy by adding a bit of roux. I would scoop a bit out of the container and stir it in. If it didn't thicken up enough, I would scoop some more out and add that. Wash, rinse, and repeat until it was as thick as I thought it needed to be.

 

[caseydog]

What else has always worked fine for me is adding cold roux to hot liquid. I used to make roux in biggish batches and keep them in the fridge. Then I could easily turn some stock or other hot liquid into gravy by adding a bit of roux. I would scoop a bit out of the container and stir it in. If it didn't thicken up enough, I would scoop some more out and add that. Wash, rinse, and repeat until it was as thick as I thought it needed to be.

Yes, you can make roux in advance and keep it in the fridge to use later. It will turn hard as a rock, but you can nuke it to soften it up, or just put it in your hot stock.

CD

 

[Meryl]

No, the French don't add eggs and cream to a mornay sauce. A mornay is based on a "mother" sauce which is a bechamel and always a roux with milk and generally the fat is butter. A mornay is a "derivative" of a bechamel by adding either gruyere or emmental.

The French also make a veloute which looks similar to a bechamel but uses stock instead of milk and this is where the French add eggs and cream to make their own "derivative" sauces of that veloute called Parisienne and Allemande for example which are used for dishes like chicken supreme and poached fish like sole, turbot or trout and vol-au-vents with chicken, veal, fish, that kind of thing. Very old school and very good eating too.

Both bechamel and veloute are 2 of the 5 French "mother" sauces, and will always be a foundation in French cooking.

Very interesting information @pictonguy ,thanks! I'm tempted to try and make one of those French derivative sauces, something to think about, perhaps to accompany a fish dish.

 

[pictonguy]

Very interesting information @pictonguy ,thanks! I'm tempted to try and make one of those French derivative sauces, something to think about, perhaps to accompany a fish dish.

Yeah, they are very good and let us know if and when you give it a go. If you have any questions, just let me know and I'll try and be helpful.

 

[Meryl]

Yeah, they are very good and let us know if and when you give it a go. If you have any questions, just let me know and I'll try and be helpful.

Thank you, will do.

 

[jennyema]

I've never made mornay sauce but I thought it was basically a bechamel with cream and egg yolks added, apart from grated gruyere cheese, being of French origins?

No. Mornay sauce is just bechemel with cheese melted in.

It’s really important to make sure your bechamel is very smooth before you add the cheese. And always add the cheese off the heat. If the bechemel is too hot, the cheese can sieze up.

And aged cheeses usually have small crystals in them so they don’t work well.

 

[Sir_Loin_of_Beef]

What you made is REBECCA Mornay sauce. Her characters were always a bit gritty!

 

[caseydog]

And aged cheeses usually have small crystals in them so they don’t work well.

That's why I asked about the cheese used. I completely agree that some cheeses can make a sauce gritty, because of those crystals. Putting taste aside, Velveeta will make a smoother cheese sauce than Parmigiano Reggiano.

CD

 

[BAPyessir6]

Yeah, what he said. Well, mostly.

What cheeses did you use?

As for the roux, I came from cajun country, so I was never given a recipe. Making a good roux is something you have to do enough times until you reach that "aha" moment, and then you can make a roux in your sleep. Your nose is a good tool for making a roux, like your recipe said, it should lose the raw flour smell and take on a nutty smell. I personally don't use butter to make a roux, but if you do, keep everything moving.

Again BAPyessir, work on trusting your instincts.

As for your milk, add it a little at a time, and use cold milk. This is where I have a question for pictonguy... doesn't the roux/dairy mixture have to come to a low boil/simmer to thicken? I would never let it come to a rolling boil, and once it reached that "simmer" stage, I take it off the heat.

CD

I used a gruyere cheddar combo, and like pictonguy said, I was wondering if the cheddar could contribute to the grittiness.

I've made bechamel bunches of times, but whenever I make some thing somewhat new, I like to follow some semblance of recipe. I do wonder if I didn't cook it enough though. The day of the sauce tasted great and slightly creamy and cheesy, but the next day it tasted kind of. . .pastey? I do wonder if it was the cheese making it taste odd, but maybe it was just since I only cooked the roux like a minute or two before slowly whisking in cold milk.

 

[BAPyessir6]

I've never made a roux with corn starch. A slurry, yes, but not a roux.

I was taught that hot roux, cold milk means no lumps, and that has always worked for me. If it ain't broke, I don't fix it.

I'm not being argumentative, at least not intentionally. Thanks for your scientific response.

CD

Is there any benefit to making roux (specifically bechamel)? with oil over butter? Is it just preference, or have you made bechamel with oil over butter?

I know butter has some semblance of water in it, so I wonder if that would change the final bechamel product when/if only oil is used.