Knife assistance - what to buy

[Scott S.]

Okay guys, I've been reading the posts on this site regarding knives for some time now, and need to finalize my decisions. I almost went with a block set, but changed my mind after reading a lot of the comments. I know Rob is a so-called J-knife snob (his own definition), but his rationale seems to make sense to me. I'm currently leaning towards the Torijo DP series 8" chef and 4" paring knife, but I have never found one to hold. I've held the Wustoff Classic and one of the Henkels, and of those two the Wustoff felt much better in my hand. I also considered the Victorinox, but decided I wanted forged instead of stamped because I like the weight. I want this to hopefully be the last set of "main" knives I buy other than a bread knife down the road (unless you know a good package with all 3).



So the big questions I have left are:

1. For the price is there any better deal going than the Torijo DP combo for $100 ish (can't remember where I saw them at though)? Where in the heck can I find one to hold locally, because I'm obviously searching in all the wrong places?
2. How difficult are the Torijo's to keep sharpened? If they are going to be a nightmare I would prefer to look at something else that is easier to maintain a good edge.
3. What is a decent set of steak knives to get that will be under $100. Not looking for the Cadillac because they are going to get abused anyway. I never could find good guidance on steak knives on the posts other than buying at a garage sale!
4. What type of sharpener should I get for the knives?
5. What is the preferred cutting surface. I have a glass cutting board that I use with my junk knives, and nylon and wood boards to use with my slightly better ones (still classified as junk though).
6. I don't have room for a block on my counter so what is the next best alternative to keep them safe while in a drawer? Something with a key lock and alarm system would be preferred!

Again this is for home use only by a wanna be Chef (a.k.a. weekend hack)! I'm going to keep some of those junk knives around so the kids can use them, but the new are ones OFF LIMITS to everyone in my house. I MAY let my wife occasionally use them if she doesn't use the glass cutting board or on my granite countertops.

So I turn it over to you guys to help me finalize my selections. Here is my budget so you can spend my money wisely: Chef and paring ($150) and steak ($100). Hopefully I'm not being too cheap! Thanks everyone!!!!

 

[snickerdoodle]

I'm looking forward to the replies to this as I am in the same boat with purchasing a chef's knife. I have it narrowed to the Tojiro DP 7" or Victorinox 6". A little bit of a price difference but that is due to the Victorinox being stamped instead of forged. I've been told that a stamped blade will be easier to sharpen, but also that it will need to be sharpened more often than a forged blade. Anyway, I could go on and on about my findings but I'll let the experts on this site take this one.

For what it's worth, I can't find any place to try out a Tojiro in my hand either but I would be OK with ordering it through Amazon where returns/exchanges are pretty easy, in case I didn't like the feel of it in my hand.

 

[Scott S.]

I'm glad I'm not the person out here who is totally confused with data/information overload!

 

[GB]

I have a Tojiro. I have never seen them in a store so I took a leap of faith and bought it online. I figured I could either return it or sell it if worse came to worse. I am very happy with the knife. It feels great in my hand and keeps a very sharp edge for quite a while. They are not difficult to sharpen either. $100 for both those knives is a great deal. I would jump on it personally. I do not think you would be disappointed. For reference, I have Wustof knives that feel good in y hand as well.

I will let someone else answer the steak knife question as the ones I have are junk.

How much do you want to spend on a sharpener? And how interested are you in sharpening?

As for storage, have you considered a magnetic strip holder? If you do not mind having the knives out and have room on a wall then that is the best way to store knives. If not, I have used these before and really like them. The bonus is that you can use them to travel with your knives if you ever need to.

Take your glass cutting board and put it in the trash. Or at the very least just don't ever let your knives touch them again. Almost nothing will dull a knife as fast as a glass cutting board. The best boards are either foodsafe plastic or wood. With wood, end grain will be better (and more expensive) than edge grain. Plastic and wood boards are kind of like Coke and Pepsi. People are pretty evenly split over which they like, but both do a great job. Plastic can go in the dishwasher, but wood can not. wood looks better (to some) and supposedly antiseptic properties. You will do fine with either. I have both and use both in my house. I love how my knives feel on wood, but I love that plastic can go in the dishwasher.

 

[Scott S.]

I don't think I would mind sharpening my own knives provided I have the right equipment. I guess if I'm willing to spend $150 on the knives I would probably spend $30 on a good sharpener. Because the knives won't do me much good unless I can keep them razor sharp.

 

[Rob Babcock]

The Tojiro handles are a little "blocky"; that is to say, they're somewhat flat and lightly radiused on the corners. Some people don't like that but I actually do. One problem you sometimes see on J-knives is that a gyuto around 210mm will often have a much smaller handle than one that's 240mm or larger. A good example is the Ikeda/Akifusa gyuto. The 240 has a pretty nice handle but the 210's handle is like a freakin' paring knife. Still, the handle isn't really a big issue once you learn to use a "pinch grip." That is to say you "choke up" on the knife, holding it by with two fingers pinching the spine of the blade and the other three fingers on the handle. Despite having much more expensive knives I still take two Tojiros to work with me every day.

The Tojiros will really hold their edge well, too- much better than a Wusthof. Sharpening them can be an issue if you're not used to sharpening by hand. The best method is water stones. Although it's not cheap, an Edge Pro Apex would be a good investment if you get bitten by "the bug." I know at least one of the mods here uses one, and I had one for a long time and loved it (stepped up to the Pro model). Of course, I have some large synthetic water stones that I use for hand sharpening as well.

One word of warning- I don't really know of any $30 sharpener that's well suited for Japanese knives. For Germans (Wusthof, Messermeister, Henckels, etc) I regularly recommend the Edgemaker Pro set. It's about $30 shipped and works very well on most knives. But I really haven't used them much on J-knives. While they may work, I suspect they may cause the edge to chip. The best way to sharpen a knife like the Tojiro is on a synthetic* water stone. You'd probably be looking at $75-$100 for a really basic set. You could get an Arashiyama 1k and a Suehiro Rika 5k stone for about $75. That would handle most sharpening you would do. If you found you liked it you could add an Arato (coarse) and a Shiagato (polish) stone later on. But a 5k edge is pretty nice.

If you want a heavy knife, though, look elsewhere. Most Japanese knives are thinner and lighter, especially since most lack a bolster. I've never understood why anyone would want a knife to be any heavier than it had to be. If you were going hiking, would you prefer to wear 5 lb boots and lug a 15 lb tent or have boots that weighed 10 oz and a 3 lb tent? I realize that in some people's minds heavier = high quality but that's not the case with cutlery. Maybe if you're splitting logs a heavier maul head translates to more power in the swing but a knife relies on sharpness, not blunt trauma. And all else being equal a thinner knife will cut better, longer.

As for steak knives, I'm over them. Unless you simply want something fancy, get some Fibrox paring knives or some 150mm petty knives. Most good steak knives are overpriced. All you need is sharp. Alternatively, you could buy as many Mora #1's as you need and call it good. Much sharper and better than any steak knife I've ever seen for even four times the price.

* Or of course, a natural water stone. But that's an expensive and exotic hobby unto itself.

 

[Rob Babcock]

So the big questions I have left are:

1. For the price is there any better deal going than the Torijo DP combo for $100 ish (can't remember where I saw them at though)? Where in the heck can I find one to hold locally, because I'm obviously searching in all the wrong places?

You can get the 2 pc Tojiro set from ChefKnivesToGo. Mark Richmond, the owner, is a great guy- very knowledgeable and terrific to deal with. I've sent him many of my paychecks! I always check there first before I buy anywhere else.

 

[Rob Babcock]

A couple more things...Recently Tojiro switched from the unspecified "Swedish steel" they used to use to VG-10. VG-10 is used in all the Shun Classics, the Hattori KF/HD line, most of the Kanetsunes, etc. It's a good steel, probably the most widely used in Japanese kitchen knives (well, stainless ones, anyhow). Secondly, the dollar is sinking like a rock vs the yen, and most makers have announced price increases to take effect next year. In all likelihood, we'll see prices of J-cutlery increase by 10-15% by early next year. So maybe you'd be wise to make it an early X-mas gift to yourself.

 

[GB]

I know it is a lot of money, but the Edge Pro Apex sharpening system is amazing. Like Rob said, if you get bit by the bug then you will want this. I could not imagine being without mine. Another system in your pricerange though is the Lansky Sharpening system. I know people who have had very good luck with them. I had one and liked it, but found it a little difficult to use because of its size. If you are set on your price range then that is what I would look into. It can do a very good job.

 

[Scott S.]

Okay, so if I don't go with the Tojiro, what brand would you guys suggest that I could use the edgemaker pro on? I'm not saying I'm going to go that way, but it would be nice to know my best options. I did like that Edge Pro Apex.

Thanks again.

 

[Rob Babcock]

As non-Japanese knives go I think Messermeisters are pretty nice. Not nearly as nice as the Tojiro, and probably at least as expensive or more so, but not bad for what they are. I have to be honest- while I have a few Euro-type knives still kicking around the house as beater knives, everything in my work knife case is Japanese. Just sayin'!

 

[Scott S.]

That is what I thought you would say and I'm still in agreement. I was just hoping to go with the edgemaker pro system because it looks so user friendly. I'm just glad I didn't buy it like I almost did last night. I know the Apex is a lot more expensive than the Lansky, but it looks a lot better too. Just one question about that. It comes with a 200 and 300 grit stones, but won't I need something more than that (e.g 600)? I guess I will have a couple of month to try the knives out before I need to sharpen it.

I think I'm going to get the Tojiro through Chef Knives to Go. I was looking at them and Cutlery and More, but since I have a recommendation for them then that is where I will go.

 

[Scott S.]

Rob, you also mentioned something about the 240mm possibly having a bigger handle than the 210mm. So do you think it is worth the extra $20 to get the longer blade and thicker handle?

Also what do you think about the Tojiro Pro Sharpener they sell at Chef Knives to Go? Would this be a good alternative since it is designed for their own knives?

 

[Rob Babcock]

I've never used that sharpener. It appears to use ceramic or diamond coated wheels, so it should be a lot better than the "rippers" like the Accu-Sharp. It would probably keep a usable edge on your knife, but then the EdgeMaker Pro probably would too is you stuck mostly to the yellow honer and used a light touch.

IMOHO a 240mm is 1000x more practical than a 210mm. Again, it comes down to preference but J-knives are so much lighter and more agile in the hand that most people can go up one size beyond the one they normally prefer and get great results. A longer knife can process more food at once with less passes, which saves time. It also makes it easier to get clean slices of larger items (eg slicing rustic breads, cutting prime rib, etc). Obviously it comes down to how you use a knife but unless you have a tiny cutting board and a very cramped kitchen you'll be better off in the long run with the 240. I used to have a couple 210's but I eventually sold them all off. Now I use 240's and 270's for most stuff.

 

[Bigjim68]

Having a 240 and 210 Gyuto and a Santoku, I can tell you that the 240 will do anything that the other two will do, but the reverse is not true. A 210 will barely go through a cantaloupe, for example, the Santuko not at all. A 240 will.
As for handles, I believe that if your knife is sharp, you will automatically use a pinch grip, and the handle design becomes only mildly important. At least, that is the way it worked for me. My knives all have a balance point around an inch into the blade, and the pinky wraps around the handle. Don't know if that is the correct way, but it is the natural way for me. I have a theory that the difference in size and weight of handles on various sizes of knives is to maintain the balance point. With the old Forschners, the handle was important.
An alternative to sharpening at home is to avail yourself of a sharpener who knows what he is doing. This is not the guy at the flea market with the grinder. At the very least, it might be a good idea to have your knives sharpened once, otherwise you do not have a benchmark to work toward.
I am not a knife expert, and all above is just observation. Where I differ from Rob and Buzz, and the other knife guys, they are right.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Well said, Jim. When you experience and edge like that, the handle fades from consideration. It still needs to have one, of course, and ornamentation comes into consideration (fancy wood, engraving, etc). But you don't need a big mechanical advantage to muscle a 2 mm thin razor of a blade through your food.

 

[Scott S.]

Okay so let's talk about the Edge Pro Apex. Which version should I get and what additional stones will I need for it. It looks like there are 4 different options, but to keep the price down I would prefer to buy the cheapest one that has the most usable components. Then I can just buy any additional stones I need for my knives.

I've always been one who prefers to pay for just what I need instead of what I don't. Hence the reason why you guys talked me out of a block set!

 

[Scott S.]

Let me add this question as well. I'm trying to convince my wife to let me get a new bread knife, but she is failing to see the value of this knife. What other uses are there for a bread knife? She thinks if you are only cutting bread with it there is no reason to spend a lot of money on a good one.

If I can convince her to let me get one would you go slightly cheaper here and go with the Forshner or stick with the Tojiro line?

 

[Rob Babcock]

Ya' gotta pick your battles. I use my bread knives very little. Even for bread I normally use a gyuto. If it were trying to make my case to the CEO/wife I'd stick with a cheap bread knife like the Kershaw Pure Komachi or Wasabi and concentrate on selling her on the Edge Pro Apex. I prefer the Kershaw knives because their serrations are scalloped instead of the more common "saw tooth" jagged pattern. That means they can be sharpened fairly easily; it's a real pain to sharpen the other kind.

As far as the Edge Pro Apex goes, there are several options, each with it's own merits. I'm not sure if you're looking at CKtG or at Ben Dale's official company web page; each has slightly different versions. At CKtG, Mark takes the basic unit and customizes them with custom Naniwa Chocera stones from Japan.

I'm not sure how to advise you there- it all depends how far "down the rabbit hole" you wanna go! FWIW I will tell you I have 30 custom stones from Shapton, Naniwa & DMT, plus a couple 'one-ofs' cut especially for me. That said, the stock stones you get right from EP are very good.

I think for doing Japanese knives, and if you decide to go with the stock/OEM stones from Edge Pro, you'll need (at a minimum) the 220, 320 & either 800 or 1,000. You could get the most basic kit with 2 stones and add the one for another $12 or so. But I'd go a little higher. The next step up includes a very, very good Idahone ceramic rod- definitely worth the money. As you get proficient with the Apex you'll almost certainly want to go higher than the 1,000 stone you get from Ben. That stone is roughly the equivalent to a 4k-5k Japanese stone. Here you'll have to decide for yourself. I know many professional chefs and cooks that don't go any higher than 5k. However, I always go up to at least 10k, and usually higher. You can try it out pretty cheap by buying a tape blank and some high grit tapes from EP. So I guess if you were going with the stock EP stuff I'd probably recommend the Apex 4 Kit from CKtG. CKtG is an authorized dealer for EP and you get free shipping. That kit will give you every standard stone they make plus the standard tapes, all for $230. Can you go cheaper? Sure. Even the basic kit + the 1,000 stone would serve you well. If you like it (and you will) you can add stones over time.

Now, if it's in your budget, I would absolutely recommend the EP Apex Custom Chocera Kit. Yeah, I realize it's not cheap. It costs $275, but you get 5 custom made Naniwa Chocera synthetic water stones. Again, no knock on the standard stones, but in my opinion the Choceras are the best synthetics on the market, at any price. At least the best I've seen or used. The edge you get off the 10k Chocera is pure magic!

Of course, you can always start with the basic kit and purchase custom stones over time. CKtG sells most of them for around $30 each; Jende sells a much thicker EP version for slightly more.

Have I totally confused you yet?

 

[Rob Babcock]

Sorry- correcting that last link. Here is the custom Chocera version. Sorry for any confusion.