The case of the disappearing meat (into chili sauce)?

[BAPyessir6]

Had a very weird phenomenon or occurrence this weekend. Basically I braised beef for like 8 hours for some chili, then after the beef was done, I mixed it into a little bit of the chili sauce. Come next day and like, after adding this meat and sauce into the chili I. . .can't find the meat. 2 whole pounds of it is like. . .in so fine of shreds that it's indistinguishable from the sauce itself. It was weird, and though the chili had great flavor, I ended up cooking another chuck 5 hours, shredding it coarsely, and adding it to a new batch (with some of the old batch added as its flavor is great), this one has much more defined texture.

Apparently this can happen by braising meat too long and it breaks down the proteins too much? Or something like that. It was weird (I've braised at least a hundred chucks) and I've never had this happen before.

If anyone could tell me what the heck happened here, I'd love it.

The meat was beef. The chili sauce was soaked/rehydrated ancho chilis, guajillo, also a half an onion and a few garlic cloves buzzed up. Also like a canned chipotle and some adobo sauce buzzed up as well.

It was so weird!!!!!

I can add pictures too if anyone is interested.

 

[dragnlaw]

If you are looking for the scientific reason, you won't get it from me!
But I think you just basically answered your own question. I quote "Apparently this can happen by braising meat too long and it breaks down the proteins too much."

It's strange, I agree. And good to know that it can happen, yes? And now thanks to you, I've learned something new!
but just like whipping cream suddenly becomes butter, I don't understand the scientific parts of it but I know it happens!

So I'm curious too. Did you happen to taste the meat before you added it to the sauce? If yes, what was the 'mouth feel' like? Anything noticeable?

 

[Kathleen]

What was the cut of beef that you used? I'm thinking that such a turnout would make the best coney sauce on Earth.....

I made Italian beef with a chuck roast in the crock pot. To prepare it, I removed all hard fat and a good amount of connective tissue. It totally fell apart - not to where I could not find the beef, but it is so tender and simply shredded into small pieces. It cooked almost 12 hours.

 

[pictonguy]

Yeah, that's happened to me with chicken where it just merged with the chicken cacciatore that I was making, yeah it got away from me, it happens.

 

[Kathleen]

But...do you know why?

 

[pictonguy]

Yeah, I was distracted all day basically and was on low and continued to give it a stir which just broke everything up. Basically this occurs for this reason, extended cooking time while moving the ingredients around, nothing survives that, especially animal protein.

 

[Andy M.]

Why on earth would you braise meat for 8 hours? That's much to long and the reason why it fell apart. Also, the 5 hours may be too long as well.

I recommend cutting up the meat to chili sized pieces, browning them in a hot pot then adding the liquids and spices and cooking them together for a n hour or two.

 

[dcSaute]

long slow braise 'dissolved' the connective tissue/elements - so yes "over braising" can/will make stuff turn into long fiber 'pieces'

this will happen especially quick/easy if the braised chunk is cut/sliced 'across the grain' - meaning the chunk is mostly short "grain lengths" - these will (not really but...) 'dissolve' into an acidic sauce

this is my MIL's sig dish - it's thick(er) but the separation of meat 'shreds' is obvious - if cut thinner from the outset, the shorter 'shreds' would easily be obscured in a sauce. this is a two step/two day process - braise, cool, reheat.

 

[blissful]

After you cooked the beef you added onions buzzed up, peppers buzzed up, ....you were buzzing up everything including the beef? I suppose it could make the bits of beef so short/small it would seem like they were gone.
Or did you buzz up the sauce ingredients separately, but the beef was not buzzed up.
?

 

[BAPyessir6]

Why on earth would you braise meat for 8 hours? That's much to long and the reason why it fell apart. Also, the 5 hours may be too long as well.

I recommend cutting up the meat to chili sized pieces, browning them in a hot pot then adding the liquids and spices and cooking them together for a n hour or two.

I always figured the longer the better for braising tough cuts, and I didn't know you could go "too far."

 

[BAPyessir6]

After you cooked the beef you added onions buzzed up, peppers buzzed up, ....you were buzzing up everything including the beef? I suppose it could make the bits of beef so short/small it would seem like they were gone.
Or did you buzz up the sauce ingredients separately, but the beef was not buzzed up.
?

I didn't buzz up the beef.

 

[BAPyessir6]

long slow braise 'dissolved' the connective tissue/elements - so yes "over braising" can/will make stuff turn into long fiber 'pieces'

this will happen especially quick/easy if the braised chunk is cut/sliced 'across the grain' - meaning the chunk is mostly short "grain lengths" - these will (not really but...) 'dissolve' into an acidic sauce

this is my MIL's sig dish - it's thick(er) but the separation of meat 'shreds' is obvious - if cut thinner from the outset, the shorter 'shreds' would easily be obscured in a sauce. this is a two step/two day process - braise, cool, reheat.
View attachment 72848

I always figured the longer you cook it, the more tender the cut becomes. I didn't know it could turn into meat mash (without the presence of say, acid). For a tough cuts like a 3 pound chuck, is there a limit to how long to braise? Or just until a knife slides in like butter?

 

[BAPyessir6]

Yeah, I was distracted all day basically and was on low and continued to give it a stir which just broke everything up. Basically this occurs for this reason, extended cooking time while moving the ingredients around, nothing survives that, especially animal protein.

I assume the added acid from tomatoes doesn't help things. Is this why, when velveting chicken, (some restaurants use baking soda) Chinese people say to not leave the baking soda on the chicken too long, as with acid it'll break down the proteins and turn the chicken to mush?

 

[BAPyessir6]

long slow braise 'dissolved' the connective tissue/elements - so yes "over braising" can/will make stuff turn into long fiber 'pieces'

this will happen especially quick/easy if the braised chunk is cut/sliced 'across the grain' - meaning the chunk is mostly short "grain lengths" - these will (not really but...) 'dissolve' into an acidic sauce

this is my MIL's sig dish - it's thick(er) but the separation of meat 'shreds' is obvious - if cut thinner from the outset, the shorter 'shreds' would easily be obscured in a sauce. this is a two step/two day process - braise, cool, reheat.
View attachment 72848

I've never really examined my method of braising, but now I'm inspired to look it over and correct potential mistakes I'm making or have been making. So to clarify, these meat "threads/shreds" are unwanted in the final product of the braise, and their presence means the meat was cooked too long?

I ask cause your MIL's beef looks exactly like how mine usually always turns out. I basically just take the beef and shred it with two forks.

 

[Andy M.]

I always figured the longer the better for braising tough cuts, and I didn't know you could go "too far."

Actually, you can go by internal temperature. If you want the meat chunks to keep their shape, shoot for an internal temperature around 195ºF. If you go up another 10-15 degrees, the meat will be shreddable.

 

[caseydog]

Why on earth would you braise meat for 8 hours? That's much to long and the reason why it fell apart. Also, the 5 hours may be too long as well.

I recommend cutting up the meat to chili sized pieces, browning them in a hot pot then adding the liquids and spices and cooking them together for a n hour or two.

I would also ask "what temperature was the braise?" 8 hours ate like 300F? That's likely to be mush.

The secret to brazing is to keep a small, sharp knife of skewer handy. Just when the knife/skewer just slides through the meat with little resistance, it is done. Forget time or temperature, probe the meat regularly to get the right "feel.".

CD

 

[pictonguy]

I assume the added acid from tomatoes doesn't help things. Is this why, when velveting chicken, (some restaurants use baking soda) Chinese people say to not leave the baking soda on the chicken too long, as with acid it'll break down the proteins and turn the chicken to mush?

They do, although the reason is exactly opposite to why it breaks down the protein.
The mostly citric acid in the tomato does help break down the protein by the denaturing process but it does that by lowering the pH environment making it acidic. Baking soda raises the pH environment making it more alkaline which makes the meat more tender but I never use baking soda for velveting and use cornstarch, egg white, shaoxing wine and soy sauce and haven't actually seen baking soda used, but I'm sure some do.

But I can leave chicken if it hasn't been overcooked in a tomato sauce for days without it basically breaking up or disappearing and like I said that was from overcooking and moving the ingredients around that eventually breaks up the protein into small and smaller pieces and eventually your asking yourself where did the chicken go, lol

 

[caseydog]

I always figured the longer you cook it, the more tender the cut becomes. I didn't know it could turn into meat mash (without the presence of say, acid). For a tough cuts like a 3 pound chuck, is there a limit to how long to braise? Or just until a knife slides in like butter?

My experience with slow cooking beef, both braising and smoking, is that there is a limit. It doesn' happen so quickly that you can't see it coming, but it happens.

I describe it as a lot of BBQ people do... Probe Tender. When a sharp point is pressed through the meat, it is (IMO) not exactly "like butter." It just glides through easily. Keep in mind, if you are smoking meat, you still want to wrap it and rest it to let the juices redistribute, and it will continue to cook during part of the resting process.

It is one of those things that you just learn over time. It is like cooks who can feel when a steak is medium rare with a press of a finger. Although I think the probe tender test for slow cooked meat is easier than finger testing a steak.

CD

 

[dcSaute]

yes, long time at higher temps will turn beef to mush.

 

[jennyema]

You cooked it for way, way too long. To the point that it disintegrated.

2 or 3 hours would have been fine.