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Old 09-08-2004, 08:45 AM   #1
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Oils ain't oils

I would be interested in hearing different views on types of oils used in your breadmaking. Although more experienced in years, my breadmaking successes are spazmodic. I have been using both butter or canola oil so far but would like to know if anyone has ventured to other oils like Macadamia, grape seed etc.

Unfortunately I have baked enough bricks to build a house, & reckon the reason is that I am up-side-down! Here in the Land Of Oz bread should collapse to rise, or should it keep falling out of the bowl.... Harrowing question.

I enjoy this site immensely, but, I must confess to a little jealousy when reading the success stories :D

Brooksy

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Old 09-08-2004, 01:34 PM   #2
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I usually just use olive oil for everything. Even my fancy recipe books don't recommend any particular vegetable oil, so I doubt it's very important vis a vis bread baking. My books do, however, warn that olive oil can alter the taste of a finished product (because it has a strong flavor compared to other vegetable oils) and that it is unsuitable for frying. However, I have been using it exclusively in breads for some time now, to no ill-effect, and it is one of the healthiest oils, so why bother with anything else?
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Old 09-08-2004, 06:27 PM   #3
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Oils in bread plus

Quote:
I would be interested in hearing different views on types of oils used in your breadmaking. Although more experienced in years, my breadmaking successes are spazmodic. I have been using both butter or canola oil so far but would like to know if anyone has ventured to other oils like Macadamia, grape seed etc.
I assume you're talking about yeast rising breads here so, based on over 30 years baking bread at home using very ordinary equipment, here are some of my humble opinions:

on butter: typically used as the fat in sweet doughs (coffee cake - cinnamon rolls - etc) which are made with all white flour. I do use butter for these kinds of doughs but for a typical "loaf" style bread I use oil - the additional steps of melting and cooling the butter are not worth the time for the flavor result.

on oil: in general, there is no need to purchase fancy/expensive oils for bread making. For most of my bread making I simply use a decent quality corn oil purchased at the supermarket. If I am making pizza dough I use a decent (but not super expensive) extra-virgin olive oil. (I do refigerate my olive oil, tho I keep a small amount in a glass container in a cupboard for convenience. Olive oil solidifies under refigeration; it will liquify when returned to room temperature.)

Quote:
Unfortunately I have baked enough bricks to build a house
I had the identical problem when I first started to make bread. Here are my hard-won epiphanies:

>use at least some white bread flour even if the recipie calls for mostly whole grain (wheat) flour. Many recipies for white bread say to use all-purpose white flour. All-purpose flour is precisely that - designed for anything made with flour - from pie dough to biscuits to cakes to breads, etc. etc. Basically, all-purpose white flour is a mix of soft wheat (low gluten/protein content) and hard wheat (hi gluten/protein content). Breads need a high gluten flour. In the USA, the actual porportion of soft to hard wheat in all-purpose flour actually varies by geographical region. Only wheat flour milled from hard wheat contains any appreciable amount of gluten.

>knead well but, when kneading, don't incorporate too much flour. I do use a heavy duty mixer with a dough hook for the initial incorporation of ingredients and kneading but I always finish the kneading by hand incorporating only small amounts of flour at a time. The kneaded dough should be feel smooth but ever so slightly tacky. The "feel" of a dough only comes from experience but once you've got it, you've got it. ...Which leads me the the 3rd point:

>don't rush the rise - this epiphany came to me courtesy of Julia Child's Mastering the Art of French Cooking Vol II published 1977. Every other cookbook I had consulted prior to then was full of tips 'n tricks to hurry up the rise. Once I relaxed and let the dough rise on its own schedule my results immediately improved. Bread dough is amazingly flexible. You can let a "sponge" or the kneaded dough itself rise in the 'frig over night for example, and the result is as good or better than just letting it rise at room temperature.

>adjust the amount of yeast for the type of bread you're making (btw, I use active dry yeast). Actually, by "type of bread" I'm really talking about the mix of flours you're using for the bread. For a recipie that yeilds 2 1-lb loaves:

- If I'm making a white bread using only hard white flour, I use only 2 TSP active dry yeast since this flour maximizes the gluten content in the bread.

- If I'm making a whole-grain loaf (primarily stone-ground hard wheat flour) or a "hybrid" loaf that uses low-gluten flours (such as rye or oat) or even legume flours (such as soybean or lentil flour) with whole wheat I use 1 TBS active dry yeast.

============
You can see I'm a bread-making fool. I love to talk about bread making - so many wonderful breads to make - so little time... poster sighs and signs off...
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Old 09-09-2004, 02:47 AM   #4
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Thank you for your thoughts, I now have more thoughts. I seem to have mastered pizza bases ok using ev olive oil, even to my daughter taking some to work to the envy of her workmates. :oops: I do enjoy potato chips fried slowly in olive oil.
I didn't give corn oil a thought - I will now. I lashed out and bought some macadamia nut oil, reasonably priced here, and am waiting for the resulting macadamia oil sprinkled with caraway seed loaf to set before trying it.

I know butter really does influence the taste because due to an unfortunate incident as a kid I no longer enjoy it. I use it as a favour for my boss (wife).

Couldn't wait. Although the quality isn't up to a pulishable standard, the delicate flavour of the maca oil is definitely there. The caraway seeds are an acquired taste but recommended.

Just a standard white recipe (I call it 'Oldcoot White') using maca oil.

Good stuff,

Brooksy
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Old 09-09-2004, 02:59 AM   #5
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Trust me to forget!

I mix my dough in a bread maker, firstly I used the dough setting, then after many failures ran the dough through the setting twice. More failures - I wonder why? I now use it to mix & knead for 15 - 20 mins then remove for first rise in a bowl on top of our TFT. After knocking down & shaping it is back to the TFT for second rise.

Dry yeast is used & activated before use.

Flours used are AP flour (10.3%), breadmakers (11.0%) and stone ground wholemeal (12%). Should I mention Gluten flour (83%)?

I even had flops using various commercial breadmixes.

By the way, TFT = Tropical Fish Tank :)
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Old 09-09-2004, 10:15 AM   #6
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Quote:
I mix my dough in a bread maker, firstly I used the dough setting, then after many failures ran the dough through the setting twice. More failures - I wonder why? I now use it to mix & knead for 15 - 20 mins then remove for first rise in a bowl on top of our TFT. After knocking down & shaping it is back to the TFT for second rise.
aha! bread maker - I've never used one. Do you often get failures with it? Offhand, 15-20 min sounds awfully long for machine kneading - do you do large batches? BTW, what's a TFT?

I never thought of using different oils in bread-making to vary the flavor (except the olive oil for pizza and butter for sweet doughs). I would have thought that, since it's such a small part of the the dough, it wouldn't make that much difference. Corn oil (plain old supermarket variety - nothing fancy) is just a flavorless oil - since it has a high smoke point, I use it for stir fry and deep frying also. I just have corn, olive and toasted sesame oil in my kitchen. There is a bottle of health-food-type peanut oil hanging out somewhere but since it doesn't seem to taste that much different in the stir-fry dishes I don't think I'd get more after it's gone.

I vary my breads mostly by varying the types of flour and/or sweetner. Ages ago I got the grain mill attachment for my KitchenAid. I use it to mill flour from grain and legumes (for example, I routinely put a small amount of soy flour in my bread since it helps it keep longer). I got it mostly for the convenience since I don't have the refrigerator or freezer space for flour made from the complete seed. I just buy the grain/legume, store it in the cupboard and mill what I need a day or two before baking. After all, Nature designed the seed for durability so why shouldn't I take advantage of her wisdom?

Just a thought - if you do sometimes have problems with heavy bread and you think it might be the bread maker what if we share a bread recipie and each of us make it our way (you use the bread machine, I use the KitchenAid + my hands) using the same ingredients, number of rises etc. then compare results? If you want to do this, send me a bread recipie (nothing too exotic please).

PS Are you in Australia?
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Old 09-09-2004, 10:17 AM   #7
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oops - it's me again - just saw
Quote:
By the way, TFT = Tropical Fish Tank
Why on earth do you put bread to rise on top of a fish tank???!!!
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Old 09-09-2004, 10:28 AM   #8
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I would guess that a tropical fish tank is somewhat warm. That would be a great place to put bread to rise.
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Old 09-09-2004, 04:11 PM   #9
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Breadmakers are strange things. I used to have one when I lived in Oz, but find that bread making is more fun without one. You shouldn't have to activate the yeast first for a breadmaker, just chuck it all in. Try that.

Also on a quiet Sunday try ditching the breadmaker.

Best of luck
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Old 09-09-2004, 09:00 PM   #10
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Atop the TFT is a 40 watt flouro & a rack on that supplies a consistant temp for rising. The tank tempo is also kept at about 32 degC for the fish so the local humidity is high due to evaporation.

Yes I am in Australia, aka The Land Of Oz ( or The LOO). If oils are good enough to put on bread then they must be good enough to put in it. After my first diversion from canola oil (except for butter) I know I'll never use it again - the difference in flavour is quite amazing. I have (I hope) posted a scan of my latest er, exploit.
Oops, didn't work. Not to worry.

Every day is a Sunday for me. Since I was invalided out of the workforce I've learnt to fly and persisted in trying to bake edible bread. Thank goodness my landings are better than my bread. Talk about embarassing! :oops:

Landings = 100% success (that's why I'm here)
Bread = 50% success.

ALL thoughts and suggestions acted upon, thanks.
And apologies to those who enjoy canola oil.

Brooksy

Every home should have a TFT.
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