Herbs and Tomato Seeds - Advice Needed

[skilletlicker]

I finally got around to planting some seeds. This first round I'll try growing in pots with potting mix and water normally instead of using an aquaponic set-up.

Those are basil on the far right and Tiny Tim Tomatoes to the left. Other rows of three right to left are thyme, parsley, rosemary, and cilantro. None of them have sprouted yet but seed packs say 14 to 21 days. They are planted in a mix of roughly 2 parts compost from the worm bin, 2 part coir, and 1 part perlite.



The center tomato plant has three seedlings as shown most clearly in the bottom picture. Thinking I should just pluck and toss two of them?

Tiny Tims are hybrid determinate that if I understand correctly produce fruit in 60 days. Not sure if that's from date seed was planted. If so, they're on a pretty tight deadline since it's already been 10 days. How large a pot should the tomatoes be planted in?
To get a continuous supply, I wonder how often seeds should be started. Every 30 days? 60?
Is the same mix I used for planting seeds the best for the pots?
Have been growing the seeds 4 inches below a clamp light with a 150W equivalent LED grow light. About to order another lamp and bulb just like those. I also have 1000W LED Full Spectrum light that I haven't taken out of the box yet.

I'm sure I've made many mistakes already. If any of the great gardeners here at DC could take a look at this and make whatever suggestions they think would be helpful I would be very very appreciative.

 

[pepperhead212]

skilletlicker, You might like to google "growing Tiny Tim Tomatoes" - there are a number of YouTube videos on them, and maybe they can help. I would guess about a gallon pot would be about right, but I've never grown it. And how many will you be trying to harvest in a given time? Maybe they can give you an idea of how many the plants produce, and how long, before they stop. There are some indeterminate dwarf varieties out there, which might be better for you. Unfortunately, for tomatoes, peppers, eggplants, etc., the 60 days is the time from transplanting - so you'll be waiting 4-5 weeks more, from seed planting.

You are going to need a lot of light, over a generous area, for what you are planning. Not sure what those LED 150w equiv is, as far as lumens, but 12 w won't be much, and things like that don't handle too many plants. If the seedlings start getting leggy, they need more light. The 1,000 w LED is kept much farther away from the plants, and covers a lot more plants, but I don't know which would cost least, per plant.

 

[pepperhead212]

On the topic of lighting, one of the reasons I don't grow tomatoes and peppers under light, in the off season, is that they need a LOT more light, esp. to flower and produce fruit. For growing herbs and seedlings I use shop-lites, and recently, I found these LEDs at Harbor freight really cheap - they are always on sale for $19.95 each, very occasionally for $16.95:
https://www.harborfreight.com/4-ft-led-hanging-shop-light-64410.html
These are 5,000 lumens, @5,000k, and supposed to be 30,000 hrs. I started 2 trays of seeds under two of these, instead of 4 T8 bulbs, and they did just as well. I also have one over my hydro herbs, with 2 T8 bulbs, and one T5 - around 16,000 lumens. This is good for herbs and greens, but I've never tried it with things like tomatoes or peppers.

 

[skilletlicker]

Pepperhead, thanks for taking the time to consider this and reply.

The advice to google growing Tiny Tims was good because I'd done some research on this late spring, early summer and got my seeds about that time but have procrastinated ever since. Learned and remembered quite a bit reviewing articles and videos this afternoon.

You asked me, "how many will you be trying to harvest in a given time?" I usually eat about a six-ounce tomato every day so could easily eat a half-dozen ½ - 1" cherry tomatoes every day. But I live in a 250 sq. ft. apt. with no patio or yard. So I'm not expecting to farm all my own produce.

That's a good price from Harbor Freight on the shop lights. I've got four two-foot T5 bulbs over my little aquaponic herb grow bed. I don't think they'd put out enough to set fruit. Start seeds and grow herbs - sure.

My plan, if you could call it that, is to harvest from two to four determinate plants at a time. So I might start new seeds every three or four weeks. I'm wondering if those egg containers aren't too small to start seeds in. And I'm thinking that maybe I should expect to transplant twice. Use the cheap light bulbs or something like them to begin the seedlings and perhaps get them through a second phase in maybe 8-ounce cups or 4" pots, while they grow to a few inches tall. Then shortly before the plants are ready to flower, move them into maybe 9" pots or 25-ounce coffee cans under the more expensive LED lighting for the last three or four weeks.

Like all plans hatched in my imagination without practical tests of whether they actually work, I don't expect to pull this off without a hitch. Rather I'll learn from failures, large and small. Of course, I'd be grateful to learn from other people's experiences first.

 

[pepperhead212]

Skilletlicker, You can start seeds in those egg containers - a lot of people do this - but you can't keep them in there very long. Often, people start them in those, and transfer them to a larger pot, sometimes to start them in a warmer spot - what I do with my peppers. FWIW, the pots my tomato seeds go into, on 4-1 every year, hold just under 7 oz, liquid volume - 36 sort of deep pots/tray. In about 30 days, the tomatoes are ready to transplant - much longer, and they would be root bound. This year, we had a very warm April, and it was well in the 70s, for the middle of the month - usually, it would be in the mid-60s, kept there from the heater, and dropped to 60 at night. Those plants were ready to go out in 25 days, at those temps (I had never seen this, in all my gardening years)! Just to give you an idea of the rate of growth, and how the temp can affect it, and the size of the pots you will need.

 

[skilletlicker]

skilletlicker, you can start seeds in those egg containers - a lot of people do this - but you can't keep them in there very long. often, people start them in those, and transfer them to a larger pot, sometimes to start them in a warmer spot - what i do with my peppers. Fwiw, the pots my tomato seeds go into, on 4-1 every year, hold just under 7 oz, liquid volume - 36 sort of deep pots/tray. In about 30 days, the tomatoes are ready to transplant - much longer, and they would be root bound. This year, we had a very warm april, and it was well in the 70s, for the middle of the month - usually, it would be in the mid-60s, kept there from the heater, and dropped to 60 at night. Those plants were ready to go out in 25 days, at those temps (i had never seen this, in all my gardening years)! Just to give you an idea of the rate of growth, and how the temp can affect it, and the size of the pots you will need.

Please point out any stupid mistakes you see. Holding off on repotting the second two tomatoes to correct any errors you guys point out.

Probably moved the egg holder with three seedlings earlier than I needed to since there wasn't much root attached. Looks to me like those 150W (really 12W) bulbs are bright enough for plants this size at least. This first round I guess I'll have three tomato pots. One with three plants, one with two, and one with only one. My gut is telling me though that for my lighting limitations Ill be better with smaller pots of one plant each. By the way, the light is off in the picture of the 3" pot because it is so bright you couldn't really see the seedlings with it on.

Took another look at the 1000W (really 165 or 330W). Think it will be bright enough but probably won't cover large enough area for more than one or two small dwarf tomato plants. In fact, will need sunglasses and jerry-rigged tenting to protect my eyes. May need another fixture like that but not 'til finishing at least one plant life-cycle.

It's not the main point of this exercise but except for two basil plants, none of the herbs have sprouted yet. Planted seeds 10/14. Instant read thermometer in the potting mixture reads 75°. Maybe too wet and needs more perlite type stuff in the mix. Will put more perlite in the second and third tomato pots.

 

[GotGarlic]

I'm watching this thread with interest, but I have no advice to offer. I've never tried to grow tomatoes indoors or grown herbs from seeds. I've thought about getting an AeroGarden, for fresh basil, but I'm not sure where I would put it.

I look forward to seeing how this works for you.

 

[dcSaute]

most grossly underestimate the amount of light energy required for indoor fruiting plants. florescent tubes should hang 2-4 inches over the plant, the LEDs are a brighter but I have no experience with them.


specifically for tomatoes, setting fruit is temp sensitive:
Optimum fruit set occurs within a very narrow night temperature range of between 60° F and 70° F. When tomato plants experience night temperatures lower than 55° F or above 75° F, interference with the growth of pollen tubes prevents normal fertilization. The pollen may even become sterile, thus causing the blossoms to drop.



for seed germination:
(BLF=before last frost)

wks BLF Opt. Temp
........75-85...basil
........86......beans, green
........84......beans, lima
........86......beans, soy
........86......beets, very flat curve
5-7...77......broccoli
5-7...84......brussel sprouts
5-7...86......cabbage
........77-94...cabbbage, chinese, very flat curve
........77......carrots, flat
5-7...59-86...cauliflower, flat some advant @86
10-12.68......celery
........86......corn, sweet
3-4...86......cukes
6-8...86......eggplant
8-10..77......leeks
3-6...76......lettuce
........90......melons
3-4...85......muskmelon
........85......okra, per johnnys packet info
6-8...77-86...onion, flat curve
6-8...70......parsley
........77......peas
6-8...86......peppers
........84......radish
........86......spinach
3-4...90......squash, summer and winter
6-10..76......tomatoes
........77-96...turnips, flat
3-4...95......watermelon

 

[skilletlicker]

I'm watching this thread with interest, but I have no advice to offer. I've never tried to grow tomatoes indoors or grown herbs from seeds. I've thought about getting an AeroGarden, for fresh basil, but I'm not sure where I would put it.

I look forward to seeing how this works for you.

Careful GG. Wanting to grow some indoor basil is what got me started down this road. Actually I found basil and lettuce the easiest to start and maintain in the aquaponic set up almost two years ago. Basil plants last a long time too if you harvest and prune thoughtfully. Don't know anything about AeroGarden though.

 

[pepperhead212]

That's funny - the reason that I got into growing in hydroponics was so that I could always have basil and Thai basil! I've grown countless other things (or attempted to, at least), but basil is the must have. Here is basil, after planting rooted cuttings on 10-2. And I've harvested a generous amount of it!
Basils, 10-27, put in the pots on 10-2 by pepperhead212, on Flickr

Skilletlicker, that thought about adding some more perlite is probably a good idea. That soil doesn't look like it has that much in it. I always add some extra, even to a mix like promix, when starting seeds

 

[skilletlicker]

Before moving the second group tomato sprouts to a 3" pot. One of the basils died (bottom center).

After moving the second group. Note a new sprout in the first group of three; now four (pot on the right). Also tried to improve the potting mix in the second pot by cutting back on compost and adding more coir and perlite.

Moved the fourth tomato into the new pot. So now I have two pots of three and one egg slot with one seedling

Two 3" pots under one 150W (really 12W) bulb. I think it'll be ok for now, especially if I rotate the pots 90° occasionally.


Still no new herb sprouts. 14 days since planting.

Ordered a mylar blanket for eye protection tenting and will set up the 1000W grow light later this week.

 

[skilletlicker]

Don't like the color of tomatoes in 3" pots or the one left in an egg crate. Leaves are yellowing between the veins. I hope it's lack of light because if not that then something is preventing nutrient take-up by the seedlings, a knotty problem in my experience.


So I set up the LED temporarily. When the plants get bigger that set up won't work but sufficient unto the day are the problems thereof.



Tented the whole thing with a mylar blanket to prevent damage to my eyes. The desktop and cooking areas are just a few feet from the light. Surprised to find the LED shining through so lined a portion of the blanket with cardboard.

The remaining basil seedling succumbed to low light(?) and no other sprouts have emerged. Planted 17 days ago.
As always, comments, questions, suggestions, and criticisms are most welcome.

 

[pepperhead212]

Skilletlicker I don't think that it's the low light that killed the basil. I start my peppers every year on the grill on my kitchen, since the pilot lights keep it warm enough for starting pepper seeds - sort of a "heat mat". There is never a light - I just "dig" the seedlings out, and transfer them to the trays under the lights, before many roots are on them, usually just the tap root. After all of the pots are filled, I always have excess seedlings in that tray on the stove, and the seedlings just get very long and leggy, not dying. I think it has to to with the soil. Esp. since the seeds haven't germinated in 2 weeks. Parsley is very slow like that, but basil usually starts in 3 or 4 days. And the veining of the leaves sounds more like the soil - low light would cause the plants to reach for light (legginess), or maybe lighter color, but not the veining.

 

[skilletlicker]

Well, the second pot had the improved potting mix with more coir and perlite and less compost from the worm bed. It looks more like good potting soil. But here's a reservation quietly echoing in the back of my head. I've no idea what the pH is. It might be pretty acidic. Lots of coffee grounds. Some egg shells might balance it out a little but really I have just no idea. It has to be very rich with castings and minerals from about 18 months of scraps. I really don't think there's such a thing as too rich when it's that natural so I'm left with pH. I test water pH but don't have anything to test the compost in the worm bed. Unless you have another suggestion I'll just see what happens in the tent over the next couple days. Worst comes to worst I could just put together a mix with store bought ingredients, I've got the stuff, and start over with new seeds.

Thanks for taking the time to consider the situation and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it.

Edited to add:
I did have two of the three egg slots that were planted with basil seed sprout one seed. And they came up in three or five days. So could have just been that badly mixed 1st batch of soil. It's the tomatoes that looked so good in that second pot that kinda bums me out.

Edited again:
Put them all to bed and although it's only been about 3 hours under the new light, they seem to be perking up and better color returning to the newer growth.

 

[pepperhead212]

Actually, there is such a thing as too rich, at least when it comes to starting seeds. And there are a lot of other things growing in the rich soil, which can kill the seedlings, before they get a foothold. Damping off occurs frequently in wet and cool soil. Also, when I get my soil tested outside, some of the substances (usually Ca and Ph) have tested as "excessive", so there can be too much of a good thing.

 

[skilletlicker]

The term "damping off" was new to me. Read about it several places since your post and it does explain the situation. And the solution seems pretty simple; just use sterile materials in future potting mixes to be used around seeds or seedlings. When repotting month old tomatoes into their final container it would no longer be an issue, right? Will throw away the working egg carton tomorrow and start another. The aquaponic bed needs to be replanted anyway. Will decide tomorrow whether to throw away the repotted tomatoes or give them another day or two to see if they can recover. But if you think that once affected the plants are weakened and less productive even if they do survive please advise of that and I will throw them away regardless.

Thanks again!

 

[pepperhead212]

You got the right idea about using the sterile mix for starting seeds. That's why seed starting mixes are peat or coir based, as a rule, with no compost, and it's pretty much sterile. Eventually, the plants get transplanted, and they should develop a resistance to these things, as well as a symbiotic relationship with some of them - sort of like probiotics for plants. Mycorrhizae is the best known of these, but there are many others, as well.

 

[Chief Longwind Of The North]

you can still use the nutrient rich worm box compost. Simply put it into an aluminum baking tray and bake it at 180; for an hour or so to sterilize it. W
As you probably already know, worm casing are among the very best slow-release fertilizers you can use.

Seeeeeya; Chief Longwind of the North