I want to relate a true story with you

[georgevan]

I used to live in Chicago and once a year channel 11 would run a documentary by the title 'Remembering Chicago'. In the documentary they interviewed people who were growing up in the 1930s. One woman said she remembered when she was in her teenage years on a hot summer night (there was no air conditioning back then) she would walk down to the nearest park all alone in her pajamas with a pillow and blanket and sleep in the park all night without one thought that someone was going to do her harm. And one could do that in any park in the city. Something real big and bad changed all that peacefulness for us. That something was truly evil.
Another person interviewed said that in his neighborhood everyone knew everyone. You knew everyone's grandparents, cousins. and everyone else in a person's life. Those must have been interesting times.

 

[roadfix]

Communities like that still exist today, but most likely not in the US.

 

[Andy M.]

Back in the "old days" many city neighborhoods were populated by people from similar backgrounds. There were Irish, Italian or Polish neighborhoods. With similar backgrounds, people felt a brotherhood or camaraderie that wouldn't have existed in more diverse neighborhoods. Naturally, these people socialized. They looked out for each other.

In modern times, with more diversity and movement, these homogeneous neighborhoods no longer exist. Both moms and dads work outside the home and have fewer children. As a result the dynamic in the neighborhoods is different. People have less time to socialize so tend to spend their free time at home.

 

[Just Cooking]

You summed it up very well, Andy.

Ross

 

[GotGarlic]

Wise words, Andy.

 

[Rob Babcock]

From a sociological point of view this is fascinating. It seems no matter how far we go back in history the folks think things had declined. There's a well known speech given in the Roman senate about how the youth were corrupt and the Republic was in decline, a speech that could have been given by Reagan! The earliest human tales are legends of the human fall from an earlier state of grace; the expulsion from the garden of Eden, the flood tale in the Epic of Gilgamesh (and later copied in the Pentateuch), Cain killing Abel, etc. Heck, a famous politician got elected promising to return America to a supposed earlier era of greatness.


I'm not convinced at all that humans have fallen from a purer, statelier form of civilization. It seems to me that historically things have gotten better as time goes by. Sometimes it's three steps forward and two steps back but by and large things are better. We've had a small uptick in crime during the time of the pandemic but overall crime rates are still much lower than in the 70s. We still have war and hunger but ever decade since the end of WWII has seen fewer killed by warfare and less hunger.


Compared to a couple hundred years ago most things are much better. Women can vote! Black people are not born into chattel slavery. We don't have eight year old children working in American factories, and sweatshop owners can't chain the fire escape doors shut to prevent workers from leaving. Striking workers aren't shot but gov troops. American kids aren't dying of polio, smallpox or whooping cough. Sure, there are still problems in the world but I'm grateful to live in the times we live in now!

 

[taxlady]

From a sociological point of view this is fascinating. It seems no matter how far we go back in history the folks think things had declined. There's a well known speech given in the Roman senate about how the youth were corrupt and the Republic was in decline, a speech that could have been given by Reagan! The earliest human tales are legends of the human fall from an earlier state of grace; the expulsion from the garden of Eden, the flood tale in the Epic of Gilgamesh (and later copied in the Pentateuch), Cain killing Abel, etc. Heck, a famous politician got elected promising to return America to a supposed earlier era of greatness.


I'm not convinced at all that humans have fallen from a purer, statelier form of civilization. It seems to me that historically things have gotten better as time goes by. Sometimes it's three steps forward and two steps back but by and large things are better. We've had a small uptick in crime during the time of the pandemic but overall crime rates are still much lower than in the 70s. We still have war and hunger but ever decade since the end of WWII has seen fewer killed by warfare and less hunger.


Compared to a couple hundred years ago most things are much better. Women can vote! Black people are not born into chattel slavery. We don't have eight year old children working in American factories, and sweatshop owners can't chain the fire escape doors shut to prevent workers from leaving. Striking workers aren't shot but gov troops. American kids aren't dying of polio, smallpox or whooping cough. Sure, there are still problems in the world but I'm grateful to live in the times we live in now!

It's really hard for us to see that. It's true. On almost all counts, things are getting better, when we look at them globally. Here's something that's much better - infant mortality rates. My great grandmother had 10 children. Only six of them lived to adulthood. That wasn't unusual back then.

If anyone wants to see some of the data about the ways things are actually getting better, watch some Ted talks by Hans Rosling. https://www.ted.com/speakers/hans_rosling

 

[taxlady]

I also agree with Andy about why we no longer see that "small town / village feeling" about city neighbourhoods.

 

[georgevan]

From a sociological point of view this is fascinating. It seems no matter how far we go back in history the folks think things had declined. There's a well known speech given in the Roman senate about how the youth were corrupt and the Republic was in decline, a speech that could have been given by Reagan! The earliest human tales are legends of the human fall from an earlier state of grace; the expulsion from the garden of Eden, the flood tale in the Epic of Gilgamesh (and later copied in the Pentateuch), Cain killing Abel, etc. Heck, a famous politician got elected promising to return America to a supposed earlier era of greatness.


I'm not convinced at all that humans have fallen from a purer, statelier form of civilization. It seems to me that historically things have gotten better as time goes by. Sometimes it's three steps forward and two steps back but by and large things are better. We've had a small uptick in crime during the time of the pandemic but overall crime rates are still much lower than in the 70s. We still have war and hunger but ever decade since the end of WWII has seen fewer killed by warfare and less hunger.


Compared to a couple hundred years ago most things are much better. Women can vote! Black people are not born into chattel slavery. We don't have eight year old children working in American factories, and sweatshop owners can't chain the fire escape doors shut to prevent workers from leaving. Striking workers aren't shot but gov troops. American kids aren't dying of polio, smallpox or whooping cough. Sure, there are still problems in the world but I'm grateful to live in the times we live in now!

No doubt some things are better but keep in mind that every American city has (or is) turning into an unlivable cesspool. But the most important thing to consider is the state of the American family. The extended family is gone for the most part. And the immediate family isn't anything it used to be.

 

[karadekoolaid]

I was brought up in a village of 500 inhabitants in Kent, UK. Everyone knew everyone. At the age of 6, my neighbours and I would walk to school - a mere 1 1/2 miles - and everyone on the street would say "Good morning! Off to school, are we?" No problem whatsoever. We´d go to "scouts" on a Thursday evening - a mile away - then walk back home in the pitch dark without any qualms.
Today in Caracas, I look both ways before getting in or out of my car (thieves and kidnappers) and simply stopped going out at night about 10 years ago - too dangerous.

 

[Silversage]

No doubt some things are better but keep in mind that every American city has (or is) turning into an unlivable cesspool. But the most important thing to consider is the state of the American family. The extended family is gone for the most part. And the immediate family isn't anything it used to be.

I find this to be categorically untrue. It sounds like a bunch of old people bemoaning "the way things used to be".

I am old, too - in my Social Security years. But I hope I never get so locked into the past that I think change is bad and the world is going downhill. I have a lot of life left to live, and I hope to keep embracing all the new, exciting things that come with it!

 

[georgevan]

I find this to be categorically untrue. It sounds like a bunch of old people bemoaning "the way things used to be".

I am old, too - in my Social Security years. But I hope I never get so locked into the past that I think change is bad and the world is going downhill. I have a lot of life left to live, and I hope to keep embracing all the new, exciting things that come with it!

Why don't you take a trip to Chicago and then decide whether or not changes have been bad. A walk around the west side or south side on a Saturday night is sure to change your mind when you realize those areas were perfectly safe back in the 1930s. But don't think of yourself think of the young children growing up who won't feel the security our past ancestors felt.

 

[Andy M.]

Why don't you take a trip to Chicago and then decide whether or not changes have been bad. A walk around the west side or south side on a Saturday night is sure to change your mind when you realize those areas were perfectly safe back in the 1930s. But don't think of yourself think of the young children growing up who won't feel the security our past ancestors felt.

Pointing to Chicago is very different from saying "every American city..."

 

[Silversage]

Why don't you take a trip to Chicago and then decide whether or not changes have been bad. A walk around the west side or south side on a Saturday night is sure to change your mind when you realize those areas were perfectly safe back in the 1930s. But don't think of yourself think of the young children growing up who won't feel the security our past ancestors felt.

In the 1930's, your town of Appleton had what was called 'Sundown Laws'. They weren't abolished until the 1970's. You should know that history. Black people were not allowed to be in town AT ALL after sundown, not even to spend a night in a hotel. It was all white - all fundamentalist Christian - and is still home to the John Birch Society, an avowed anti-civil rights group. That's not a world to which I want to return.

Women didn't work - they stayed home and made babies and 'took care of' their husbands. Most children couldn't aspire to go to college. In the 1930's, Chicago was the worst single hit city in the US by the Great Depression. They didn't sleep on park benches because they wanted to - they slept there because they didn't have a place to live.

My mother was a City of Detroit police officer. It's a whole lot safer in Detroit now than it was in the 1960's, and I felt safe then, as I do now. I love Chicago, Detroit, New York, Miami. They are vibrant with activities, culture, and diversity. They have the best restaurants, the best theater, the best museums. Boston, Philadelphia, St Louis have history. Atlanta has overcome its antebellum past and is a thriving multicultural city.

Re-read what Andy posted. Things have changed - cities have diversified. That's not a bad thing - it's just different - it's progress. If we didn't progress, we'd still live in the Middle Ages.

The older we get, and the closer we get to the end of our time here. the more some people start to reminisce about 'the good old days', when everything was sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows. Studies have shown repeatedly that the 'good old days' were never actually that good. We just look back through a filter of time. Just like you forget the pain of childbirth, (or of having a tooth pulled for you whimpy men ), the loss of a loved one softens over time, the hurt of a broken heart vanishes with the next love, we whitewash the painful parts of our history, and try to relive the good times.

 

[Just Cooking]

I get the feeling that "we" think in generalities when, in my personal case, "I" believe that I think in terms of how it was for "me and my family".

I grew up during and immediately after WWll. My widowed mother and I lived with my grandfather, a 42 year career soldier. I believe "we" had it pretty darned good.

It wasn't until a decade or so ago that I realized that the Italian, Spanish, Black and Asian kids I grew up with didn't have it as good as I did. They experienced racism and, in some cases a poverty which I never knew about or understood.

For "me" I'd like to go back to those daily calm and peaceful times but... I doubt if those kids I grew up with would think the same.


Ross

 

[Sir_Loin_of_Beef]

I used to live in Chicago and once a year channel 11 would run a documentary by the title 'Remembering Chicago'.

I used to work in Chicago, in a department store. I used to work in Chicago, I did what I don't any more.

 

[georgevan]

Should I make a list of the cities that have either died or are in the process of dieing or have huge swaths of these cities that have died and are unlivable: Detroit, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Newark, Chicgo, Cincinnati, New Orleans, Miami, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Memphis, Camden NJ, Gary IN, Youngstown Oh, etc. This is only a small list. There are many small towns now where you don't dare go out at night without having to be fearful of crime. So no one tell me that we always look at the good old days through rosy eyes. Those good old days in the 1930s were great days compared to now only then they didn't have our state of decline to compare it to. I just read that there were over a dozen people shot in Chicago on Xmas eve.

 

[georgevan]

In the 1930's, your town of Appleton had what was called 'Sundown Laws'. They weren't abolished until the 1970's. You should know that history. Black people were not allowed to be in town AT ALL after sundown, not even to spend a night in a hotel. It was all white - all fundamentalist Christian - and is still home to the John Birch Society, an avowed anti-civil rights group. That's not a world to which I want to return.

Women didn't work - they stayed home and made babies and 'took care of' their husbands. Most children couldn't aspire to go to college. In the 1930's, Chicago was the worst single hit city in the US by the Great Depression. They didn't sleep on park benches because they wanted to - they slept there because they didn't have a place to live.

My mother was a City of Detroit police officer. It's a whole lot safer in Detroit now than it was in the 1960's, and I felt safe then, as I do now. I love Chicago, Detroit, New York, Miami. They are vibrant with activities, culture, and diversity. They have the best restaurants, the best theater, the best museums. Boston, Philadelphia, St Louis have history. Atlanta has overcome its antebellum past and is a thriving multicultural city.

Re-read what Andy posted. Things have changed - cities have diversified. That's not a bad thing - it's just different - it's progress. If we didn't progress, we'd still live in the Middle Ages.

The older we get, and the closer we get to the end of our time here. the more some people start to reminisce about 'the good old days', when everything was sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows. Studies have shown repeatedly that the 'good old days' were never actually that good. We just look back through a filter of time. Just like you forget the pain of childbirth, (or of having a tooth pulled for you whimpy men ), the loss of a loved one softens over time, the hurt of a broken heart vanishes with the next love, we whitewash the painful parts of our history, and try to relive the good times.

It is true that Appleton is right wing but so what. No one is being hurt by that political orientation. There are the usual outside elements that would like to make Appleton another liberal bastion of some sort but why not let people have their own living environment. As far as the John Birch Society goes they have had an extremist label for a long time now but the hysteria attached to their name has been tempered in recent years as people realize that they weren't entirely wrong about everything. I am not a member and have no plans on becoming one but they have just as much right to exist as any liberal organization does.

 

[taxlady]

It is true that Appleton is right wing but so what. No one is being hurt by that political orientation. There are the usual outside elements that would like to make Appleton another liberal bastion of some sort but why not let people have their own living environment. As far as the John Birch Society goes they have had an extremist label for a long time now but the hysteria attached to their name has been tempered in recent years as people realize that they weren't entirely wrong about everything. I am not a member and have no plans on becoming one but they have just as much right to exist as any liberal organization does.

So, are you saying that you don't give a rat's arse about people who aren't white, straight, and Xtian? Or that they are "no one"? Or are you saying you might care about what happens to them, as long as they live over there ---->

 

[Just Cooking]

I doubt that our admins will allow this thread to go on much longer.