The missing 777 Malaysian plane

[roadfix]

Wow, I didn't realize this about the 777.

 

[Cheryl J]

I can't believe some of the banners that are put up on the news...

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

That would be true to an extent if the car was made completely of metal and constructed in a way to allow electrons to move freely along the outside of the vehicle without penetrating the vehicle.
Most cars would fail this test miserably.
Faraday cages can do little if anything to protect from a direct lightning strike.

The only protection a car can provide from a direct lightning strike is the tires. They insulate the vehicle from the ground and do not allow the current to pass through the vehicle frame.
There is also a small degree of physical protection from the heat itself.
But make no mistake.
If lightning were to hit your car directly and you are inside the car, the chance of death is very high. The keyword is "direct strike".

I would rather be in a car during a lightning storm than being outside in it. But given the choice and knowing the magnitude of a lightning strike, I would prefer to be inside my house away from any windows.

If the car was a good Faraday cage, you would not be able to use your cell phone in it.

You are confusing what happens to a car when it's struck by lightning and the definition of "Faraday cage." In fact when a car is struck by lightning it becomes charged and like charge repels like charge. When the charge builds up high enough it doesn't matter if there are window holes. Your car becomes increasingly distasteful to the lightning and it finds other leakage paths to dissipate in.

I used to work in a Faraday cage when I was a 2-way radio technician. It's basically a copper wire box. Any radio transmissions hit the wire screen ad build up a field that repels the radio waves rather than allowing them through.

Your cellphone works in a car because of the holes where the windows are. They don't generate enough energy to charge up the car and repel the electromagnetic waves.

A lightning bolt is basically a huge electric flow, enough to charge up your car. A cellphone emits weak electromagnetic waves, not strong enough to do anything to prevent escaping from your car.

I'm a professional electronic engineer, or was until I got put out to pasture.

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

Okay I will bite.

Terrorists hijacked the plane. They took control of the plane, decompressed the cabin and killed all the passengers, while they were relatively safe in the pilot bay.
Or they took the plane to 45,000' and allowed all to go to sleep (except them) forever.

They then took the plane to a terrorist country, hid it in a airplane hanger and at this very moment are retrofitting it with many pounds of explosives for a big show.

I am surprised someone hasn't blamed the President yet.

I too believe terrorists are more likely than not.

However, the altitude readings are so unreliable as to be useless. They came from "skin paints" (the raw radar returns absent transponder data). The truth is that there is no trustworthy means to determine the altitude of the aircraft after the transponder was switched off.

Additionally, there would be no need to climb if the pilot wanted to kill all the passengers. Commercial aircraft travel at about 33,000 feet, far too high for a human to survive depressurization. The oxygen masks are set to drop when the cabin pressure altitude falls below 10,000 feet. But some airports (few, but enough) are above 10,000 feet, so the pilot has a switch to disable the 10,000 foot trigger, to be used at landing at the few airports above 10K feet. (The cabin pressure is routinely adjusted to the altitude of the destination airport during the final phases of the flight.)

A pilot could easily kill all the passengers by throwing the switch that turns off the automatic deployment of oxygen masks at 10,000 feet, and then simply depressurized the cabin. At 33,000 feet most of the people would be unconscious in minute or so, and dead a few minutes after.

No need to climb to a high altitude to kill all the passengers. Easily done at normal cruising altitude by anybody who knows how to fly the aircraft.

BTW I'm a licensed private pilot since the '70s although I've never flown an aircraft with an oxygen system.

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

Here's a few theories about the loss of contact with air traffic controllers:

1. It lost contact with the air traffic controllers because the equipment at the air controllers facility was old and faulty.

2. The air traffic controllers were busy posting selfies on Facebook

3. The controllers were drunk or stoned.

But the plane is still up there looking for some sober controllers who can land them safely---- in Roswell NM.

They lost contact with air traffic control because they flew out of radio range. That was what the "goodnight" was all about. It's a code word ("goodday" and "goodnight"") meaning that I am leaving the frequency and expect no further communications on this frequency. It is used during a hand-over to another ATC facility or when going out of communications area.

Nothing unusual here.

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

If there was a fire, and they lost the electronics, the plane would have crashed right then. This plane cannot fly without power. A loss of the electrical/electronics would be the disaster in itself.
The plane supposedly flew on for several hours. If this is the case, there had to be a functional electronic system. Speculating on my part GB.

Like you, I have to go with the obvious. They are all dead and the plane resides on the bottom of the ocean. Hoping to find these poor souls is not going to happen (I wish I believed in miracles).

Modern aircraft are equipped with multiply redundant systems. For example, the 777 is a "fly by wire" system where the control wheel in the cockpit is not connected to the flight surfaces (ailerons, elevators, rudder) except by data links. The system is triple redundant at all levels, and only one level is necessary to continue control of the aircraft.

All important instruments are duplicated on both sides of the cockpit and are powered by separate systems.

Aw shoot, I hate to keep claiming expertise, but I worked for 4-5 years for RCA Avionics which was purchased and became Sperry Avionics. I designed electronic engine instrument systems.

The aircraft could fly with many of the systems gone, although a total oxygen fire in the cockpit would do a pretty good job of taking down the aircraft very quickly.

 

[roadfix]

I'm now leaning towards the terrorist theory. Also makes for a good movie plot.

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

That theory came from a certified pilot. He said it is standard operating procedure to throw all the breakers when there is a fire so I must assume that the plane can fly that way and would not just crash. However the other part of his theory was that the pilots were quickly overcome by the fire/smoke/heat whatever, so that it flew for hours is kind of a wrench in that idea.

I'm a certified private pilot and I had a mid-air electrical fire enroute between Van Nuys (CA) and Lancaster Fox Municipal Airport, at about 5,000-6,000 feet. As the cockpit filled with smoke I was amazed to see my hand hit the master switch on the circuit breaker panel and turn off everything! I did it without any conscious effort. I didn't even know I could do that. At the same time I opened the little door in the pilot's window to let the smoky air out.

The aircraft was a Piper Cherokee 140. The engine system is totally separate from the rest of the electric system except for the electric starters. It runs on avgas (140 octane IIRC) and has dual magnetos that provide spark to the cylinders to keep them running when all the electrics are switched off.

Long story short, I lived. I turned off all the individual circuit breakers except the radios, turned the master back on and after a few minutes of sniffing, no smell, I contacted Fox and informed them I was inbound and may come in without radio contact. After landing I inspected what I could and found nothing wrong. I turned on everything (on the ground) and nada.

I flew back to Van Nuys and landed, reported the problem to the rental FBO. They said, "Yeah, somebody else had that last week on the same aircraft." I never flew with them again.

Getting back to large transport aircraft, I'm pretty sure you could turn off enough stuff from the cockpit to crash the aircraft, if pointing it at the ground isn't sufficient.



I can't see any scenario that is consistent with any of the passengers surviving. Perhaps crew in the cockpit...

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

When we lived in Texas, we lived in a large trailer. One night there was a bad storm right overhead. A lightening strike hit the trailer. The next morning we went out to look. The whole side of the trailer starting at the top where the electrical was connected to the pole and all the way to the tires, was burnt and cut by the strike. Part of the tires were melted into the ground. I am still not sure what a Faraday Cage is, but I will assume we were in one that night. And I am forever grateful for those tires on that trailer.

Being surrounded by aluminum and insulated off the ground is what saved you.

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

Okay to sum it up, my theories:

1. unexplained accident due to design of aircraft

2. intentional hijack by the pilot(s) or passenger(s) or both

2a. unsuccessful hijack resulted in a crash and destruction of the aircraft

3. successful highjack and rerouting to enemy airport to be used as a weapons delivery system at a later date. This is 2a above that succeeded.

 

[Addie]

Glad you guys were okay.

Since the destruction started at the top of the electrical service, it is entirely possible you did not receive a direct strike. Since you are alive to tell us this, I must assume it was not a direct strike.
The lightning most likely hit the tallest structure in your immediate area. Could have been the pole that serves your dwelling.

This would be evident by the destruction of the electrical service entering the dwelling.
I am afraid that if the lightning had hit the trailer directly, the trailer most like would be destroyed.

Most strikes reported are not actually direct strikes. They are reports from people close by that feel and see the effect of the strike.
Those that live through this, in large part not directly hit by lightning.

Here ya go Addie. A description of a Faraday cage. Faraday cage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We didn't lose our electrical service. It didn't even interrupt television service. No one did except the house down on the corner that burnt down. So how do you explain the large burn through the metal all the way the whole length of the trailer down to the tires?

 

[cave76]

This is not going to make much difference, if any, to solving the mystery or where-abouts of the missing plane.

But WHY bother to correct it? Are they saving someones butt? And which version is the truth?

"Malaysia changes version of last words from missing flight's cockpit
KUALA LUMPUR, April 1 Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:17pm EDT

(Reuters) - The last words spoken by one of the pilots of the missing Malaysian Airlines airliner to the control tower were "Good night Malaysian three seven zero", Malaysia's civil aviation authority said, changing the previous account of the last message as a more casual "All right, good night.""

Malaysia changes version of last words from missing flight's cockpit | Reuters

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

You are right Cave, it matters not. The new version sounds a little more professional.

It appears to me that it is unlikely we will ever know what happened. Each day, each week makes it more unlikely this will be solved.

 

[Roll_Bones]

You are confusing what happens to a car when it's struck by lightning and the definition of "Faraday cage." In fact when a car is struck by lightning it becomes charged and like charge repels like charge. When the charge builds up high enough it doesn't matter if there are window holes. Your car becomes increasingly distasteful to the lightning and it finds other leakage paths to dissipate in.

I used to work in a Faraday cage when I was a 2-way radio technician. It's basically a copper wire box. Any radio transmissions hit the wire screen ad build up a field that repels the radio waves rather than allowing them through.

Your cellphone works in a car because of the holes where the windows are. They don't generate enough energy to charge up the car and repel the electromagnetic waves.

A lightning bolt is basically a huge electric flow, enough to charge up your car. A cellphone emits weak electromagnetic waves, not strong enough to do anything to prevent escaping from your car.

I'm a professional electronic engineer, or was until I got put out to pasture.

My point was no matter a Faraday cage (I did not bring that into this conversation) or a bird cage.
A direct hit by lightning is in most every instance a death sentence. The key word is "direct strike".
A Faraday cage cannot do anything to protect in the event of a direct hit by lightning.

We didn't lose our electrical service. It didn't even interrupt television service. No one did except the house down on the corner that burnt down. So how do you explain the large burn through the metal all the way the whole length of the trailer down to the tires?

Sounds unlikely you could receive this damage to the structure, yet have no interruption of TV and electricity.
Heck we lose our picture when it snows.....LOL

Addie, no one can guess or assume what happened that night at your trailer home.
But we can accept as fact the lightning strike can destroy most anything in its path. If it was burned, lightning traveled across the structure with no easy path to earth. The trailer was off the ground, and possibly still on tires.
This insulates the structure from earth and gives the lightning no where to go. Thus the burned sections you describe and the daisy chain effect you mention regarding the other structure that did burn down..
Like I said before. Had it hit your house directly, chance are good you would not be here with us to discuss this.

 

[cave76]

You are right Cave, it matters not. The new version sounds a little more professional.

It appears to me that it is unlikely we will ever know what happened. Each day, each week makes it more unlikely this will be solved.

You're right on both counts----- It may be years before we even have a glimmer of hope of knowing what actually happened. Even then, it may be filtered through dozens of 'explanations' that could be right or wrong depending on the agency producing them.

And yes, it does sound more professional----- (says cave76, disingenuously and with skeptics hat firmly on. )

I feel sorry for the relatives and friends of the deceased (for it does sound like that's who they are although I will wish for a miracle)

Not only are those people grieving but they have to endure all the tugs and pulls of the media and the governments.

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

My point was no matter a Faraday cage (I did not bring that into this conversation) or a bird cage.
A direct hit by lightning is in most every instance a death sentence. The key word is "direct strike"

A Faraday cage cannot do anything to protect in the event of a direct hit by lightning.

You are twice wrong. There are many examples of people being struck by lightning and living, although often with complications. A direct hit is not a good thing but it is not a death sentence.

A good Faraday cage would completely protect you although it would have to be constructed of a good enough conductor to not melt under the energy.

I recommend you do some reading to understand why this works.

 

[Mad Cook]

You are confusing what happens to a car when it's struck by lightning and the definition of "Faraday cage." In fact when a car is struck by lightning it becomes charged and like charge repels like charge. When the charge builds up high enough it doesn't matter if there are window holes. Your car becomes increasingly distasteful to the lightning and it finds other leakage paths to dissipate in.

I used to work in a Faraday cage when I was a 2-way radio technician. It's basically a copper wire box. Any radio transmissions hit the wire screen ad build up a field that repels the radio waves rather than allowing them through.

Your cellphone works in a car because of the holes where the windows are. They don't generate enough energy to charge up the car and repel the electromagnetic waves.

A lightning bolt is basically a huge electric flow, enough to charge up your car. A cellphone emits weak electromagnetic waves, not strong enough to do anything to prevent escaping from your car.

I'm a professional electronic engineer, or was until I got put out to pasture.

////

 

[Mad Cook]

My point was no matter a Faraday cage (I did not bring that into this conversation) or a bird cage.
A direct hit by lightning is in most every instance a death sentence. The key word is "direct strike".
A Faraday cage cannot do anything to protect in the event of a direct hit by lightning.

That's interesting. I remember being told in school science, I think, that an aeroplane is an example of Faraday's cage which protects it in a lightning strike. Just goes to show you shouldn't believe everything that you are told at school.

 

[Greg Who Cooks]

That's interesting. I remember being told in school science, I think, that an aeroplane is an example of Faraday's cage which protects it in a lightning strike. Just goes to show you shouldn't believe everything that you are told at school.

Lightning strikes in passenger aircraft were a common event until the advent of aircraft weather radar and are still not unheard of.

That is exactly why it is common for aircraft lightning strikes to cause no harm to the aircraft, or at least no serious harm.

The lightning hits the aircraft which immediately charges it up. Like charges repel like charges so the lightning finds the aircraft increasingly unsavory. The repulsion is sufficient to prevent the lightning from coming in the windows.

Often there may be a bit of melting where the first bolt strikes the aircraft. On occasion it can mess up radio gear since it has antennas poking out beyond the fuselage.

It is not good for an aircraft to be struck by lightning but it is not a death sentence.

Since the advent of modern aircraft weather radar all commercial aircraft (and everybody else with a brain) avoids weather areas that may include the possibility of lightning strikes.

As far as I know the possibility of weather being involved in the missing 777 has never been mentioned even once in the media.

 

[Roll_Bones]

You are twice wrong. There are many examples of people being struck by lightning and living, although often with complications. A direct hit is not a good thing but it is not a death sentence.

A good Faraday cage would completely protect you although it would have to be constructed of a good enough conductor to not melt under the energy.

I recommend you do some reading to understand why this works.

I also have an electronic and electrical background.
You have totally missed my point.
"A direct lightning strike is very likely to kill anyone directly struck"

Now we all know what a Faraday cage is now and we all know why an airplane can and will endure direct strikes.
But I dare you to take a direct hit and be able to tell me I am wrong three times. 2 times would be all you had left.

People that live through lightning strikes in most every instance were not struck directly.
Being just in the proximity of the strike can cause severe burns and death.

I have done a good bit of study and work on lightning protection, grounding and bonding of electrical systems. I know the force of lightning. I have repaired and replaced many electrical systems due to lightning damage.
I respect lightning and what it is capable of doing. To minimize the devastation lightning produces is a serious mistake.
To live through lightning most always requires that you not be DIRECTLY hit by the lightning.

That's interesting. I remember being told in school science, I think, that an airplane is an example of Faraday's cage which protects it in a lightning strike. Just goes to show you shouldn't believe everything that you are told at school.

You were taught correctly. An airplane is a good Faraday cage inherently. Just by its construction and the materials used to build an airplane.

Lightning striking a flying Faraday cage is probably the best place anyone could be when lightning strikes.
I know a pilot that told me he has been hit more than once with no issue other than a few burn marks on the fuselage.

There is a big difference being in a plane vs being in a solidly grounded (earthed) building or other structure.
There is a bigger difference being out in the open and having lightning strike.

Bottom line.
Lightning hits you directly, you die. To live through a direct hit would be like winning the Power Ball Lottery.