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Old 08-10-2014, 01:42 PM   #21
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Lets clear up "rice wine vinegar vs rice vinegar" are they the same thing?
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Old 08-10-2014, 01:54 PM   #22
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Lets clear up "rice wine vinegar vs rice vinegar" are they the same thing?
Yes.
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Old 08-10-2014, 03:20 PM   #23
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Hard cider can be sold at any establishment that sells beer, wine or liquor. It's more of a specialty product, so you probably won't find it at a regular grocery store, but it's available at Total Wine and I've bought it from small wine shops.
Since I am not a customer of liquor stores, I guess I will never see it for sale in this state at least. But thank you for the information.
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Old 08-10-2014, 03:31 PM   #24
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Let's clear up a little misinformation.

Technically speaking "cider" is fermented apple juice. That's been the name for hundreds of years, and it was the most popular alcoholic drink in the US for a long time. During prohibition, some cider houses, fearing that they would lose their livelihood, sold non-fermented juice to the public and continued calling it cider. Who knows why... maybe they had a glut of labels to use up. In any case, when prohibition ended and it was legal to make the fermented beverage again, some began referring to it as "hard cider" to differentiate it from the unfermented beverage, which they also continued to sell as "apple cider" because it was popular.

Life would be so much simpler if we would just call the unfermented stuff "apple juice" and the fermented stuff "cider," the way it originally was. We are the only country in the world where "hard cider" has any meaning at all.

Cider (the fermented beverage) is available for sale at lots of places. There's nothing illegal about it. We have several cider houses between here and Wisconsin that make and sell it.
The closest you could come to 'hard cider' used to be non-pasteurized and non-strained apple juice. Then a bunch of folks got very, very sick just a few years ago from it when they had bought it at a large chain grocery store. Now all pressed apple juices have to be pasteurized. I guessed it killed the idea of buying the non-pasteurized stuff and turning it into hard cider at home. That is just a guess. I am assuming that hard cider can be made from non-pasteurized pressed juices. The farm that was selling the non-pastureurized stuff complained that having to pastureurize it would destroy their business. It was famous because it was pure right from the apple.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:21 PM   #25
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The closest you could come to 'hard cider' used to be non-pasteurized and non-strained apple juice. Then a bunch of folks got very, very sick just a few years ago from it when they had bought it at a large chain grocery store. Now all pressed apple juices have to be pasteurized. I guessed it killed the idea of buying the non-pasteurized stuff and turning it into hard cider at home. That is just a guess. I am assuming that hard cider can be made from non-pasteurized pressed juices. The farm that was selling the non-pastureurized stuff complained that having to pastureurize it would destroy their business. It was famous because it was pure right from the apple.
It's true that pasteurization will kill off any wild yeast in the apple juice, but you can still ferment it by reintroducing a commercial yeast culture. In fact, it makes fermentation easier because the added yeast doesn't have to compete with any indigenous strains.

Preservatives are another matter. You can't ferment juice with added preservatives such as potassium sorbate, because it prevents the yeast cells from propagating. Kind of like yeast birth control.

We have a very large orchard operation just south of where I live. Every year our winemaking club buys a lot of juice from them. We can even specify the blend of apples - although we've used the same blend for the last 4 years: Haralson, Cortland, Zestar, and Honeycrisp. The juice we buy is not pasteurized.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:45 PM   #26
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Not here. We can send our child to the store to buy cider. If there were alcohol in it, they would have to be 21 y.o. and show proof of age. What you are talking about for us would be hard cider. I have yet to ever see a place that sells it legally. But then I am not looking for it.

And as a footnote, the bottle of the seasoned rice vinegar I tossed, spelled Saki with an "I", and the Japanese spell it with an "E".
I know you differentiate between your "apple" cider or "soft" cider which is basically untreated apple juice and "hard" cider which is what we call cider. However, I think you'll find that the non-alcoholic juice has to be fermented to make it alcoholic (ie "hard" cider) in order to then make it into vinegar.

Anyway, it doesn't much matter as by the time the stuff becomes vinegar there won't be any alcohol left in it.

As for saki/sake I've had HH Monroe, who wrote under the nom de plume "Saki", on my mind recently as I found one of his collections in the box of books I unpacked last week. Typing fingers not connected to brain!
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:48 PM   #27
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It's true that pasteurization will kill off any wild yeast in the apple juice, but you can still ferment it by reintroducing a commercial yeast culture. In fact, it makes fermentation easier because the added yeast doesn't have to compete with any indigenous strains.

Preservatives are another matter. You can't ferment juice with added preservatives such as potassium sorbate, because it prevents the yeast cells from propagating. Kind of like yeast birth control.

We have a very large orchard operation just south of where I live. Every year our winemaking club buys a lot of juice from them. We can even specify the blend of apples - although we've used the same blend for the last 4 years: Haralson, Cortland, Zestar, and Honeycrisp. The juice we buy is not pasteurized.
I love the idea of "yeast birth control". I think the last lot of yeast I bought was on it because my bread didn't rise.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:51 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Steve Kroll View Post
It's true that pasteurization will kill off any wild yeast in the apple juice, but you can still ferment it by reintroducing a commercial yeast culture. In fact, it makes fermentation easier because the added yeast doesn't have to compete with any indigenous strains.

Preservatives are another matter. You can't ferment juice with added preservatives such as potassium sorbate, because it prevents the yeast cells from propagating. Kind of like yeast birth control.

We have a very large orchard operation just south of where I live. Every year our winemaking club buys a lot of juice from them. We can even specify the blend of apples - although we've used the same blend for the last 4 years: Haralson, Cortland, Zestar, and Honeycrisp. The juice we buy is not pasteurized.
Can't say the same for Mass. any more.
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Old 08-10-2014, 08:31 PM   #29
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I was on the phone with The Queen of Far, Far Away and found a bottle of Rice Vinegar in the pantry. I knew I had Mirin, but not the Vinegar. The Queen is fine, but can no longer drive.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:32 AM   #30
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Addie, as far as I know, they are the same thing.
Rice wine is wine. Sake. Soju, etc.

Rice Wine Vinegar is vinegar that has been made from rice wine.

Vinegar is made from alcohol, it does not turn into alcohol. And it really doesn't go bad. So no need to throw it away.
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