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Old 02-03-2008, 12:16 AM   #71
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This is about the third of fourth thread that has had much debate back and forth, complex issues each of them and not readily sorted out.
The great thing about the information age is all the information readily available...
The bad thing about the information age is all the information readily available...
Both are true, but that isn't the point. Point is ya gotta know how to find that middle path and take a walk on down it... ;)
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Old 02-03-2008, 12:17 AM   #72
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Put yea, so he tossed the trashed salad?? LOL.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:18 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozart View Post
Many, many millions of people throughout time have been killed by disease spread by mosquitoes and fleas. Malaria, Yellow Fever, Black Plague ring a bell.
While your statement is true it is also specious.

I thought we were discussing food and food born pathogens.

Not parasites and pest transmitted diseases.


Quote:
While Cats and dogs can certainly be vectors, particularly if your septic system is failing in the back yard, they are not even in the same league with biting insects.

Biting insects are not relevant to this discussion.

That is unless your contention is that I have more to worry about from fleas and mosquito's biting my pot roast and giving me a tropical disease or the plague than I have to worry about my cats leaving the litter boxes then walking across the cutting board or food prep areas and equipment.

??

I'm just trying to stay on point.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:19 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Maverick2272 View Post
Put yea, so he tossed the trashed salad?? LOL.
Three or four days ago?

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Old 02-03-2008, 08:05 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wart View Post
While your statement is true it is also specious.

I thought we were discussing food and food born pathogens.

Not parasites and pest transmitted diseases.





Biting insects are not relevant to this discussion.

That is unless your contention is that I have more to worry about from fleas and mosquito's biting my pot roast and giving me a tropical disease or the plague than I have to worry about my cats leaving the litter boxes then walking across the cutting board or food prep areas and equipment.

??

I'm just trying to stay on point.
Hi Wart:

I agree that mosquitoes are not a food borne vector. I answered the vector issue generally when brought up by another , not specific to food:

"Transmission vectors are live animals and insects that can transmit disease, again having nothing to do with airborne transmission of disease. A good example is a mosquito. Fomites are inanimate objects that can transmit disease. A good example would be a contaminated cutting board."

Significant food vectors would include house flies, and rats.

I honestly have never heard of cats or dogs being a significant source of pathogenic transmission in food. That doesn't mean it can't happen, and if your cat makes a habit of walking on your cutting board, you are right to be concerned and careful.

Why don't you ask you sanitation teacher about food borne vectors. I would be interested in his take.
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Old 02-03-2008, 08:16 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozart View Post

first, all bacteria and viruses don't need moisture. Many Viruses particularly can live for long periods without moisture. In the link I gave you, a common food borne virus, Norwalk, is a good example.

Second, many bacteria do thrive in moisture, but that is not all they need, they also need food. For example, bacteria do not thrive in deep underground water sources, because there is no organic material for them to feed on.

Third, in context, Washing produce will not produce bacterial growth by introducing moisture in the amount of time it takes to eat it. And most of us that would wash an apple say prior to storage, would also dry it.
1, they need it to Breed (and that`s what the subject was about)
2, no one EVER said that`s all they need, thats something You read into it, no one else.

"Moisture Most foods naturally contain sufficient moisture to provide bacteria with the water they need in order to grow. Where moisture has been deliberately removed (e.g. in dehydrated foods such as milk powder, soup mixes, etc.), then bacteria will not grow whilst the food remains dry, but once water is added then bacterial growth may occur once more."

taken from: Bacteria growth requirements

3, we were on about IN-SHOP washing, days beforehand, no one said anything about washing before you eat it!


are you with me now?
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Old 02-03-2008, 08:41 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YT2095 View Post
2, no one EVER said that`s all they need, thats something You read into it, no one else.
Well you said it.

"the problem for the most part is quite simply this, posed as a question: What is the ONE THING that bacteria or Viruses cannot do without?
(forget the Exotic space borne types)."

How would you interpret "ONE THING"? Seems exclusive of other things to me.

What bacteria DO NEED to multiply:

Moisture
A biodegradable organic source
Temperature
Time
PH Level
Either oxygen/ no oxygen/ or either
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Old 02-03-2008, 09:00 AM   #78
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it`s Not exclusive of the other things in CONTEXT though is it?

it May read like that taken OUT of context though, and since all the posts and indeed Topic are pretty self explanatory, I find it hard to figure How it could be taken in any other way???

we were Talking about Moisture (in store washing of foods), the Time and Temp are a given as are the nutrients and so forth, the only thing in question was the Water.

so no, I can`t see where you get this idea from?
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Old 02-03-2008, 09:51 AM   #79
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it`s Not exclusive of the other things in CONTEXT though is it?

it May read like that taken OUT of context though, and since all the posts and indeed Topic are pretty self explanatory, I find it hard to figure How it could be taken in any other way???

we were Talking about Moisture (in store washing of foods), the Time and Temp are a given as are the nutrients and so forth, the only thing in question was the Water.

so no, I can`t see where you get this idea from?

Again YT, don't understand why you are so defensive. If you meant that water was one of the things, then why would my discussion about it evoke such dissension. At worst, I'm just adding some information that many here wouldn't know. Maybe you "take it as a given" what bacteria need to multiply, but I'm guessing many here don't.

As for context, a lot of the discussion was about washing foods at home with either water, soap, or chemicals. I provided a link about that at post #43. There were two posts after that both dealing with washing at home, one by you in which you agreed with my link about home washing of produce. The next post, #46, was your "Water is the only thing" post. So that was my context.

Anyway, I'm glad you didn't eat the salad and get sick
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Old 02-03-2008, 11:11 AM   #80
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Thank You :)

anyway, I think we`ve Bored these good people here long enough now, I for one am going to consider this a Misunderstanding, and let the whole thing drop, it`s boring me too.
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