"Discover Cooking, Discuss Life."

Go Back   Discuss Cooking - Cooking Forums > The Back Porch > Off Topic Discussions
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-10-2016, 10:39 AM   #21
Head Chef
 
creative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 1,614
Lightbulb

It is clear that nothing I could say would ever be enough to persuade you. I am familiar with the placebo effect but the results I have seen in myself and others are not down to being "all in our head". Ha.. Never mind. I, too, am done with this.
__________________

__________________
"All you need is love. But a little chocolate now and then doesn't hurt" (Charles M. Shulz)
creative is offline  
Old 05-10-2016, 11:36 AM   #22
Chef Extraordinaire
 
GotGarlic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Southeastern Virginia
Posts: 16,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by creative View Post
It is clear that nothing I could say would ever be enough to persuade you. I am familiar with the placebo effect but the results I have seen in myself and others are not down to being "all in our head". Ha.. Never mind. I, too, am done with this.
Sorry, but you standing there saying, "I know it worked!" is not proof.

Please don't misrepresent what I said. My point is that correlation does not equal causation and so rigorously designed studies are necessary to prove that an intervention has an effect. Here are a few fun graphs that illustrate that principle: Spurious Correlations
__________________

__________________
The trouble with eating Italian food is that five or six days later you're hungry again. ~ George Miller
GotGarlic is offline  
Old 05-10-2016, 11:50 AM   #23
Head Chef
 
creative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 1,614
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by GotGarlic View Post
Sorry, but you standing there saying, "I know it worked!" is not proof.
When there is a sudden, marked improvement in someone's condition from undergoing a natural therapy - which can be despite their own scepticism i.e. far from being a placebo effect - then THIS is the proof!
Direct experience is a valid form of truth. Science is not the be and all of truth. It has limitations!

Incidentally I suppose you know that complimentary therapies work well alongside orthodox medicine....
__________________
"All you need is love. But a little chocolate now and then doesn't hurt" (Charles M. Shulz)
creative is offline  
Old 05-10-2016, 12:21 PM   #24
Chef Extraordinaire
 
GotGarlic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Southeastern Virginia
Posts: 16,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by creative View Post
When there is a sudden, marked improvement in someone's condition from undergoing a natural therapy - which can be despite their own scepticism i.e. far from being a placebo effect - then THIS is the proof!
No. It is not. The fact that one thing followed another does not mean that the first thing caused the second. That's a logical fallacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by creative View Post
Incidentally I suppose you know that complimentary therapies work well alongside orthodox medicine....
I know people use them together. I wouldn't necessarily say it works well. It can be quite dangerous.

Quote:
Recent studies have found that a greater number of supplements than previously thought may affect the way certain enzymes in the body metabolize drugs. Some supplements may inhibit the enzymes’ ability to break down a drug and clear it from the body, causing medication to build up to potentially toxic levels and even cause overdose. Other supplements may increase the rate at which a drug is broken down, clearing it from the body too quickly to be effective.

As herbal supplements gain in popularity, medical researchers are studying the interactions and side effects supplements have on prescription medications. Botanicals, for example, can interfere with drug-metabolizing enzymes in the liver, stomach and intestines and proteins in the blood that can alter the way drugs are distributed throughout the body.
How Your Supplements Interact With Prescription Drugs - WSJ
__________________
The trouble with eating Italian food is that five or six days later you're hungry again. ~ George Miller
GotGarlic is offline  
Old 05-10-2016, 01:20 PM   #25
Head Chef
 
creative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 1,614
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by GotGarlic View Post
No. It is not. The fact that one thing followed another does not mean that the first thing caused the second. That's a logical fallacy.
When all things are equal, i.e. the only thing that has changed in the patient's life is the natural therapy treatment, then it is not unreasonable to suppose that any positive change is due to this. Logically!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotGarlic View Post
I know people use them together. I wouldn't necessarily say it works well. It can be quite dangerous.
Dangerous? Really? You think doctors would recommend complimentary therapies if they thought this? This would suggest you do not have confidence in doctors to confidently administer treatment.

As for providing a link on supplements and how they may interact with drugs, I can't help noticing you cherrypick your info deliberately just to try and diss anything natural. If you were being more honest then you would have also included a truer appraisal of this situation, e.g. some drugs are not to be taken with alcohol, other drugs, grapefruit juice etc.

__________________
"All you need is love. But a little chocolate now and then doesn't hurt" (Charles M. Shulz)
creative is offline  
Old 05-10-2016, 09:49 PM   #26
Chef Extraordinaire
 
GotGarlic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Southeastern Virginia
Posts: 16,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by creative View Post
When all things are equal, i.e. the only thing that has changed in the patient's life is the natural therapy treatment, then it is not unreasonable to suppose that any positive change is due to this. Logically!
Right. So if I take echinachea, my cold will go away in seven days. If I take nothing, it will be gone in a week. Clearly it must be the herb

Quote:
Originally Posted by creative View Post
Dangerous? Really? You think doctors would recommend complimentary therapies if they thought this? This would suggest you do not have confidence in doctors to confidently administer treatment.

As for providing a link on supplements and how they may interact with drugs, I can't help noticing you cherrypick your info deliberately just to try and diss anything natural. If you were being more honest then you would have also included a truer appraisal of this situation, e.g. some drugs are not to be taken with alcohol, other drugs, grapefruit juice etc.

Yes, really. Most medical doctors don't recommend alternative "therapies" because they're unproven and are not part of the standard of care. It would put them at high risk of being sued for malpractice. If you're talking about naturopaths, they're not real doctors, so they don't count. Don't put words in my mouth.

We're not talking about actual medical treatment here - we're talking about so-called "natural" remedies that believers in pseudoscience claim are all good with no possibility of side effects or negative interactions. Because natural. Clearly that's not true.
__________________
The trouble with eating Italian food is that five or six days later you're hungry again. ~ George Miller
GotGarlic is offline  
Old 05-10-2016, 10:09 PM   #27
Chef Extraordinaire
 
GotGarlic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Southeastern Virginia
Posts: 16,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by creative View Post
Herbalism has its place and was never meant to be a substitute for surgery.
Back to the beginning. Appendicitis is an infection. Before antibiotics were available, people tried to treat infections with herbs. So they were using herbs instead of surgery. Now that we have X-rays, CT scans and antibiotics, we don't need to let people die of infections anymore.

I'm not going to link to sites discussing this because I don't want to increase their search engine rankings. If you care to, you can find them yourself.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Anci...reat+infection
__________________
The trouble with eating Italian food is that five or six days later you're hungry again. ~ George Miller
GotGarlic is offline  
Old 05-11-2016, 05:26 AM   #28
Head Chef
 
creative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 1,614
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by GotGarlic View Post
Right. So if I take echinachea, my cold will go away in seven days. If I take nothing, it will be gone in a week. Clearly it must be the herb
Your knowledge is old, i.e. out of date. It is now known that echinacea is not effective for bacterial infections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GotGarlic View Post
Yes, really. Most medical doctors don't recommend alternative "therapies" because they're unproven and are not part of the standard of care. It would put them at high risk of being sued for malpractice. If you're talking about naturopaths, they're not real doctors, so they don't count. Don't put words in my mouth.

We're not talking about actual medical treatment here - we're talking about so-called "natural" remedies that believers in pseudoscience claim are all good with no possibility of side effects or negative interactions. Because natural. Clearly that's not true.
I thought as much - you display your lack of knowledge by not discerning the difference between complimentary therapies and alternative therapies. There IS a difference, i.e. complimentary therapies ARE used with orthodox medicine....at least here in UK.

Also, I forgot to say, with your link to say what supplements are not to be used with certain drugs, this information would be made clear (in a leaflet inside the medicine packet) - at least it is here in UK. It would also say what other drugs it clashes with and what else not to take with it e.g. alcohol, grapefruit juice etc.

You are making a sweeping statement here that is blatantly not representative of natural remedies re. that there cannot be side effects. Of course it would be foolish to use anything in excess i.e. it would have consequences. That's a no brainer. Your sledgehammer style of attack belies you wanting to give a realistic appraisal of the situation....poor show!
__________________
"All you need is love. But a little chocolate now and then doesn't hurt" (Charles M. Shulz)
creative is offline  
Old 05-11-2016, 05:30 AM   #29
Head Chef
 
creative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 1,614
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by GotGarlic View Post
Back to the beginning. Appendicitis is an infection. Before antibiotics were available, people tried to treat infections with herbs. So they were using herbs instead of surgery. Now that we have X-rays, CT scans and antibiotics, we don't need to let people die of infections anymore.
Oh come on...that is a very poor, redundant argument! Ha - laughable! Back then nothing else was available i.e. we didn't have the benefits of technology that we do now. This is hardly the same thing as saying that herbalism is now used to take the place of operations - that is a false statement! As mentioned, herbalism can be used beneficially with the run up to an operation and also to aid recovery afterward.
__________________
"All you need is love. But a little chocolate now and then doesn't hurt" (Charles M. Shulz)
creative is offline  
Old 05-11-2016, 10:37 AM   #30
Chef Extraordinaire
 
GotGarlic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Southeastern Virginia
Posts: 16,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by creative View Post
Your knowledge is old, i.e. out of date. It is now known that echinacea is not effective for bacterial infections.
Apparently you donít recognize an illustration when you see one. The specific herb is not the point. The point is that some conditions will improve whether there's an intervention or not. So giving someone something and seeing them improve does *not* mean the thing caused the improvement. Thatís one reason ďnaturalĒ remedies are a waste of time and money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by creative View Post
You are making a sweeping statement here that is blatantly not representative of natural remedies re. that there cannot be side effects. Of course it would be foolish to use anything in excess i.e. it would have consequences. That's a no brainer. Your sledgehammer style of attack belies you wanting to give a realistic appraisal of the situation....poor show!
It is not *I* who makes that claim. It is supporters and practitioners of ďnaturalĒ remedies who say that. And theyíre not talking about overuse. The idea is that if itís natural, it must be safe, because itís natural. Circular, illogical reasoning that ignores things like lead, tobacco, arsenic, etc.

Itís ridiculous that after every statement, I have to tell you that youíve missed the point, and then try to explain it again, and then watch you twist my words again. I donít know whether you are being deliberately argumentative or you really donít understand what Iím saying, but itís clear from that and your insulting manner that instead of proving your point you prefer to attack me. Which of course undermines your argument.
__________________

__________________
The trouble with eating Italian food is that five or six days later you're hungry again. ~ George Miller
GotGarlic is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Discuss Cooking on Facebook

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.