Knife sharpening angles?

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blackbirdpies

Assistant Cook
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
14
Location
Chicago, IL
well after reading a few threads in the knife forums, i've decided to buy a sharpening stone per the recommendations of some on the forum (King 1k/6k) to try and sharpen my knives.
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they might not be the best but they are what i can afford (cheap and/or free). 2 are stainless steel (6.5 and 10" chef knives), one says "molybdenum vanadium high carbon stainless" (6.5"), and the 3rd (7") is most likely a carbon-steel (?) cleaver. the 6.5" knife has knicks from a bad experience with a crappy knife sharpener.

since i can't afford the expensive ones, i can at least practice my knife sharpening skills on these so by the time that i ever am able to afford my fancy knives, i'll be a knife sharpening pro. could anybody please recommend sharpening angles for the above knives and the best way to eyeball or gauge that? i am an absolute neophyte so i will freely admit that i know nothing. any information is welcome.

and if it means anything, my partner is a right-hander and i'm a converted left-hander (my right hand is slightly gimpy and have had to switch certain tasks over to my left hand) but since i do most of the cooking, i will tend to be the wielder of the blades.

thank you for any and all tips, suggestions and words of encouragement.
 
I was taught to go for 22-23 deg. for all except perhaps the cleaver
(I shoot for 1/2 of 45 deg.) - depending on how you use the cleaver
(cutting bones?) you might want to shoot for something like 30 deg.
 
hold the knife perpendicular to the stone (like you are going to slice through it) - thats 90 degress.....cut the angle in half - thats 45 degrees....cut it in half once more - thats 22.5 degrees

thats a good way to estimate, and as about exact as you are going to get anyway

ive just recently began sharpening with my own king stone...been practicing on the cheap knives, and this weekend i think im going to try my hand on my good parer (more acute angles, though)...if that works out well, ill try my larger knives
 
thanks all.

i guess i could have the smaller chef's knife at 15 deg, per CharlieD's recommendation, for slicing tomatoes or other vegetables very fine and so on. and according to mike in brooklyn, 30 would be for butcher duties (the cleaver) and everything else in between is 22-23 for perhaps the larger chef's knife? or would i just be confusing myself?

how long have you been using the stone for, theNoodleIncident? is there a certain point that you feel like you are getting it, a certain rhythm or position?

also, am i pushing forward and pulling backward or just going in one direction? if so, which direction?

thank you
 
thanks all.

i guess i could have the smaller chef's knife at 15 deg, per CharlieD's recommendation, for slicing tomatoes or other vegetables very fine and so on. and according to mike in brooklyn, 30 would be for butcher duties (the cleaver) and everything else in between is 22-23 for perhaps the larger chef's knife? or would i just be confusing myself?

how long have you been using the stone for, theNoodleIncident? is there a certain point that you feel like you are getting it, a certain rhythm or position?

also, am i pushing forward and pulling backward or just going in one direction? if so, which direction?

thank you

The angle you give the knife depends on its intended use. For slicing and light chopping (NOT touching bones) you should go for a 15 degree per side angle as this is about as acute an angle your knives can handle. The 22-23 stuff is often touted because that's the way the knives come from the German and French factories. They are sharpened this way to make the edges last as long as possible but defeats the purpose of sharpening your own knives. Only use an angle like this if you're going to do heavy chopping or the edge will be touching objects like bones or marble cutting boards, etc.

You push AND pull with more pressure applied on the push cycle. Watch this and the other videos of Dave Martell. I've never seen better free hand edges than the ones he produces. Learn by practicing on your crappiest knife first. Be sure and raise a full length burr and then remove it before going to the next finer stone.

Buzz
 
The angle you give the knife depends on its intended use. For slicing and light chopping (NOT touching bones) you should go for a 15 degree per side angle as this is about as acute an angle your knives can handle. The 22-23 stuff is often touted because that's the way the knives come from the German and French factories. They are sharpened this way to make the edges last as long as possible but defeats the purpose of sharpening your own knives. Only use an angle like this if you're going to do heavy chopping or the edge will be touching objects like bones or marble cutting boards, etc.

You push AND pull with more pressure applied on the push cycle. Watch this and the other videos of Dave Martell. I've never seen better free hand edges than the ones he produces. Learn by practicing on your crappiest knife first. Be sure and raise a full length burr and then remove it before going to the next finer stone.

Buzz

Never knew about the 15deg. method Buzz and will certainl try it
soon - I use an 8" Dexter Russell Chinese knife almost exclusively and
I use it almost exclusively on vegetables. I sharpen/hone using
60 circular strokes applying pressure only on the blade to tang
stroke and finish with 20 lateral front to back strokes. I learned this
technique from observing butchers at a local Chinese supermarket.
 
looks like the other guys already answered some of your questions

ive only been hand sharpening for like a month...and ive only done 3 knives, so im still very much a newbie....i do feel that i've learned alot in these few weeks, mostly because i had read a TON on the topic but hadn't actually tried it yet....actually seeing/feeling/hearing the process makes it alot more clear....now, that isn't to say im good at it yet - im not terrible, but certainly not "good" yet....my troubles so far have been creating and detecting a burr (either im not properly grinding one, or i cant feel that i already have), and holding a consistent angle (especially around the tip, which is tough)....the knives ive done so far have been cheap, and very dull, so its going to be interesting to see what happens when i try a good knife that is still semi sharp (going to take my parer to the stones this weekend)

something else im bad at is grinding evenly on both side - maybe someone can help me....i just sort of grind away on one side, till i think ive done a good job, or until i think i may have formed a burr....im absolutely not counting of strokes (i try to estimate the same amount of time on each side, but im sure thats not accurate)....how important is equal grinding? im guessing that if i dont make it even, im eventually going to have a very asymmetrical bevel, which may or may not be a good thing....prob a bad thing if im not trying to create a specific asymmetrical bevel
 
Never knew about the 15deg. method Buzz and will certainl try it
soon - I use an 8" Dexter Russell Chinese knife almost exclusively and
I use it almost exclusively on vegetables. I sharpen/hone using
60 circular strokes applying pressure only on the blade to tang
stroke and finish with 20 lateral front to back strokes. I learned this
technique from observing butchers at a local Chinese supermarket.

Oops. Misunderstanding I think. The 15 degree angle to which I was referring is the bevel angle, not the angle of the blade relative to the stone. I sharpen with the blade 90 degrees to the stone at all times to keep it simple. It helps with muscle memory and makes it easy for me to maintain an angle quite well. If I were to use a different blade to stone angle, or worse, a changing angle during the stroke, my bevels would be all over the place.

As to your technique; sounds good to me. We all sharpen differently but the basics are, ummmmm, cut in stone.

1) Maintain the angle
2) Raise a burr
3) Remove the burr
4) Proceed to the next finer stone and repeat

Any deviation from those four constitutes an incorrect method of free handing.

Buzz
 
Thanks for the correction Buzz - do you use any sharpening aids
like DMT which will allign the knife to the blade at an exact angle.

I would also like to hear your opinion of diamond stones -
I currently use a normal stone with 3 grades of finer to
coarse grit.
 
Thanks for the correction Buzz - do you use any sharpening aids
like DMT which will allign the knife to the blade at an exact angle.

I would also like to hear your opinion of diamond stones -
I currently use a normal stone with 3 grades of finer to
coarse grit.

I used to use the magic marker trick as can be seen in the video at Edge Pro, Inc. but now I am much more loose. With enough experience under my belt I can sense the bevel, that is, there is a certain feel when the bevel is on the stone. There is also sound associated with the bevel relative to the stone.

Beyond that, lay the blade on the stone with a finger on the edge. You can feel a gap. Raise the spine until the knife edge and the stone meet. That's the bevel angle.

Changing the angle is another ball game. If I want to be exact I use my EdgePro for the initial bevel. Otherwise, when thinning a blade to form a new secondary bevel I lower the spine to no angle in particular and start removing metal. It's a little rough at first but eventually the bevel flattens out so moving up to the finer grits becomes an easy task. When forming and polishing a secondary bevel you can ignore the burr if you will be adding a primary bevel.

I have two diamond stones, a DMT Diasharp XXC and a C. I used to use the XXC for making new bevels but now use a Naniwa 150 Omura. Presently I use both the DMT's for flattening my other stones and man are they ever good at their job.

No problem using a series of diamond stones for sharpening. Lots of people do it that way and the results are excellent. In addition, they don't have to be presoaked and they don't dish. I don't have the reference but somewhere out there is a youtube video of a guy going through a series of preangled diamond stones and I think he carved a hair strand at the end. Preangling is having the stone at a set angle and keeping the blade parallel to Mother Earth when sharpening. The picture is a setup I use on occasion using a rubber tire chock and a simple inclinometer to set the angle. If you have an iPnone, the free DualLevel app will do the same thing.

img_809412_0_e0fef964d65b6fa15415cc54722b65f5.jpg
 
Be sure and raise a full length burr and then remove it before going to the next finer stone.
Buzz

thanks so much for the video and information, Buzz. so...:ermm: i'm extremely embarrassed and humbled to admit that i'm rather fuzzy on what a burr is. is that comparable to the wood shavings from planing? is there a point where you're taking off too much or is there a certain amount or feel/sound that i can only attain a zen idea of from grinding down a few crappy knives?

I used to use the magic marker trick...

what's the magic marker trick and is that advisable for a newbie or would this be a distraction and should i just focus more on keeping a consistent angle like you said?

When forming and polishing a secondary bevel you can ignore the burr if you will be adding a primary bevel.

i was looking on this other site and it mentioned a "relief" edge/bevel (also, when people say edge, they are referring to the bevel, right, instead of just the tip edge?). is that what you mean by the secondary bevel as they refer to the actual cutting bevel as the secondary and the non-cutting bevel as the relief? which confuses me as shouldn't the cutting bevel be referred to as primary? what's the purpose of having a non-cutting bevel?

thanks again, Buzz, for your advice and patience as i pepper you with mind-numbing questions that you've probably answered myriad times before. and what a great idea, angling the stone itself instead of trying to approximate with the wobbly grinding hand. though, i have neither an inclinometer nor an iPhone so guess i'll just have to feel it out.

ive only been hand sharpening for like a month...and ive only done 3 knives, so im still very much a newbie....i do feel that i've learned alot in these few weeks, mostly because i had read a TON...actually seeing/feeling/hearing the process makes it alot more clear....now, that isn't to say im good at it yet - im not terrible, but certainly not "good" yet....my troubles so far have been creating and detecting a burr (either im not properly grinding one, or i cant feel that i already have), and holding a consistent angle (especially around the tip, which is tough)....the knives ive done so far have been cheap, and very dull, so its going to be interesting to see what happens when i try a good knife that is still semi sharp (going to take my parer to the stones this weekend)

TheNoodleIncident, you definitely know more than i do and the fact that you've read up on a ton of this stuff and are getting to the point where you are starting to have a "sense" of knife sharpening, that's what i'm aspiring to. greatly appreciate any feedback from you since you'd know the trepidation that a newbie like myself would feel...or when i ask a really stupid question. there's just so much stuff out there and some of the information seems to contradict each other so it's nice to have a forum of knowledgeable, kind folks to help a lost soul. good luck on sharpening your parer.
 
thanks so much for the video and information, Buzz. so...:ermm: i'm extremely embarrassed and humbled to admit that i'm rather fuzzy on what a burr is. is that comparable to the wood shavings from planing? is there a point where you're taking off too much or is there a certain amount or feel/sound that i can only attain a zen idea of from grinding down a few crappy knives?

When the two bevels meet during sharpening a piece of metal sticks out from the very edge and leans away from the side you just ground. Run a finger down the side of the blade to the edge and it will feel smooth on the newly ground side and "catchy" on the opposite side. You can't miss it. If you don't feel anything you have not yet reached the edge and more grinding is required.

sharpen103.jpg


Checking for a burr:

sharpen13.jpg




what's the magic marker trick and is that advisable for a newbie or would this be a distraction and should i just focus more on keeping a consistent angle like you said?

The magic marker trick is on the referenced EdgePro video.

i was looking on this other site and it mentioned a "relief" edge/bevel (also, when people say edge, they are referring to the bevel, right, instead of just the tip edge?). is that what you mean by the secondary bevel as they refer to the actual cutting bevel as the secondary and the non-cutting bevel as the relief? which confuses me as shouldn't the cutting bevel be referred to as primary? what's the purpose of having a non-cutting bevel?

The terminology can be confusing. The bevel leading to the cutting edge itself is the primary bevel. You might also see it called micro bevel. The thinned part of the blade above the primary bevel is the relief bevel or secondary bevel.

Angle AB is the secondary bevel and angle CD is the primary bevel leading to the cutting edge.

sharpen5.jpg
 
TheNoodleIncident, you definitely know more than i do and the fact that you've read up on a ton of this stuff and are getting to the point where you are starting to have a "sense" of knife sharpening, that's what i'm aspiring to. greatly appreciate any feedback from you since you'd know the trepidation that a newbie like myself would feel...or when i ask a really stupid question. there's just so much stuff out there and some of the information seems to contradict each other so it's nice to have a forum of knowledgeable, kind folks to help a lost soul. good luck on sharpening your parer.

i felt the same way when i first started - and i still do! everytime i learn something, i discover 10 more things that i need to learn...this is partially due to the fact that i did most of my reading on forums where the focus was sharpening and knives (as opposed to this site, which is more cooking focused), and those guys will give you OCD in no time....and i don't mean that in a bad way, because those guys are also the best sources of info out there! they take it to a whole new level (i hang out here because i like to feel smart :ROFLMAO: )

someone recently said that sharpening is nothing more than rubbing a knife on a rock, and it's been done since cavemen were around, so don't make such a big deal over it....now, of course, once you get into it, you can make it much more complicated, but the basic principle is really that simple....people kept saying that i should just try it, and see that it isn't too hard....from my first few sharpenings, ive made knives that are not only usable, but better than most knives you find in other people's homes....so i could prob stay at this level of competence for the rest of my life, and still be ahead of most.....but, thanks to my new found OCD (thanks FF and KF!), i want to get good enough at it to develop the "scary sharp" edge i keep hearing about (question for people who ARE that competent - are those edges possible on the king 1k/6k?)

ive also found that info tends to contradict itself - i think this is because there is no perfect method of sharpening, and everyone has their own way...the trick is to step back, and realize that everyone is following the same basic formula (see buzz's 4 step process), but just implementing it in slightly different ways....

personally, i would still love to sit down with someone who really knows what they are doing and just watch them work...im sure im making little mistakes, that i dont even realize im doing

regarding the parer, it went pretty well - it is def sharper than it was, and i didnt ruin or scratch it up....i can tell that the bevel is a bit uneven, especially around the tip...someone also said that small knives are hard to sharpen....more experience! thanks for asking
 

personally, i would still love to sit down with someone who really knows what they are doing and just watch them work...im sure im making little mistakes, that i dont even realize im doing

regarding the parer, it went pretty well - it is def sharper than it was, and i didnt ruin or scratch it up....i can tell that the bevel is a bit uneven, especially around the tip...someone also said that small knives are hard to sharpen....more experience! thanks for asking

Once you learn the theory and have seen a video or two it's time to have at it with your practice knives. Those uneven bevels get better with each knife you sharpen. The first few knives you sharpen may not be the prettiest on the block but they will cut and you will be on your way.

Buzz
 
yeah, i think im happy with the results, even though it could be better....im more relieved to know that i can sharpen my good knives, without ruining them....my next knife will be my good santoku....i think the geometry will make this easier to sharpen than the chef (am i allowed to call the shun a gyuto? haha...)....plus, the chef is my favorite, so im saving it for last
 
yeah, i think im happy with the results, even though it could be better....im more relieved to know that i can sharpen my good knives, without ruining them....my next knife will be my good santoku....i think the geometry will make this easier to sharpen than the chef (am i allowed to call the shun a gyuto? haha...)....plus, the chef is my favorite, so im saving it for last

There is nothing wrong with Shuns. They may be downplayed because they are available everywhere. So? VG-10 is excellent steel and Shun geometry is fine, not the thickest, not the thinnest. I think the Classic line is excellent although I'm not so hot on the Alton's Angle or Ken Onion lines - too gimmicky for me.

Buzz
 
agreed! i have only tried the classic line, but the only other line i would be really interested in would be the elite.

i must be hanging out at FF and KF too much because i feel the need to defend my knives ;)
 
agreed! i have only tried the classic line, but the only other line i would be really interested in would be the elite.

i must be hanging out at FF and KF too much because i feel the need to defend my knives ;)

You'll know when you've spent too much time at FF & KF when you can answer any question asked here in your sleep. :cool:
 
thanks TheNoodleIncident & Buzz. it was fun reading your discourse. like listening to shifu (or in my native tongue Sư phụ) & student.

from my first few sharpenings, ive made knives that are not only usable, but better than most knives you find in other people's homes

that's what i like to hear: success...or at least to my very newbie point of view that counts as success. to you, it's probably just the starting point.

The magic marker trick is on the referenced EdgePro video.

oops! i think i clicked on your link which went to the home site and should have clicked just a little bit further to go to the video. thank you very much for clarifying the terminology.
 
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