Sobering thought dinner 29/10/2013

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I agree with you 100% on all counts including your work at the food bank. We do about 30 hours of volunteer work a week and constantly hear "How much do they pay you for doing this?". Mouths fly open when they hear "Nothing, it's called volunteering".
good for you oldvine,respect:)!!
 
you are completely missing the point & blurring the shape.we all know how the economics work,we all know about sweatshops,huge margins & poverty line payslips...anyone who watches the tv,listens to the radio,reads a paper, uses the internet or simply walks about with their eyes open knows all of that & it will takes many,many years to change.it is pointless imo to reiterate what we all already know & have heard a thousand times before.
my point was a simple one...these people need help NOW.the symptoms can be alleviated while we try to find a cure
But you can't find a cure until we accept and deal with the causes and acknowledge our part in perpetuating the problem
 
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You can acknowledge probable causes while still treating the symptoms. It is not a case of one or the other here.

For as long as there have been organized groups of people living together there have been folks going hungry. Its up to those who have food to share with those that don't. Period, the end.
 
You can acknowledge probable causes while still treating the symptoms. It is not a case of one or the other here.

For as long as there have been organized groups of people living together there have been folks going hungry. Its up to those who have food to share with those that don't. Period, the end.

thaas right. we give it the ol' one-two punch. meantimes, i'm eating on this ere pot o' kale and smoked pork jowls--yesterday, today, an' lookin like maybe tomorrow too. oh, and that's a big 'yum'....:)
 
You can acknowledge probable causes while still treating the symptoms. It is not a case of one or the other here.

For as long as there have been organized groups of people living together there have been folks going hungry. Its up to those who have food to share with those that don't. Period, the end.
But that isn't the end. It's only the beginning. To use a metaphor - A tourniquet is essential to stop the bleeding but the ends of the artery have to be sewn together to heal the wound. By all means donate to and work for your local food bank but don't sit back on your laurels and say you've done your bit.

To take one (notorious on both sides of the Atlantic) example - The supermarkets can only sell us that tin of beans for 15 pence because they exploit their employees and by default the employees of their suppliers and, by buying that tin of beans we perpetuate the exploitation of those employees. It's up to us to persuade the supermarket boards and other employers that they need to change.

Try applying your argument to child labour, slavery, capital punishment for trivial offences and the denial of such basic freedoms as universal manhood suffrage, women's suffrage and free education for all. Sitting around saying "Well it's always been like that" didn't repeal the injustices around those and many other historical issues.
 
...To take one (notorious on both sides of the Atlantic) example - The supermarkets can only sell us that tin of beans for 15 pence because they exploit their employees and by default the employees of their suppliers and, by buying that tin of beans we perpetuate the exploitation of those employees. It's up to us to persuade the supermarket boards and other employers that they need to change...


You want consumers to tell supermarkets to charge more so factory workers somewhere can get a raise? MC you are looking at this Bass Ackwards! It doesn't work that way. It cannot work that way.

Workers must demand higher wages, then manufacturers raise their prices, then wholesalers raise their prices, supermarkets raise theirs, then consumers complain and pay the higher prices. Think labor unions.
 
Yep. Everyone says people should make more money until they themselves have to pay more because of it.
 
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Mad Cook, I don't see anyone arguing with you. Everyone agrees that things should change. It's lovely that you feel passionately about this issue but do try to see clearly what folks are saying. Perhaps you could start a thread and tell us who you've spoken to and what things you're doing with your local grocery to give us all a boost.

I'm personally of the opinion that I will be of best help to those folk going hungry in my own neighbourhood and I feed them. I'm a hands on kind of girl and I look after those in need who are near me. I'll be happy to leave the long distance organizing to someone better at it.
 
By all means donate to and work for your local food bank but don't sit back on your laurels and say you've done your bit.

The supermarkets can only sell us that tin of beans for 15 pence because they exploit their employees and by default the employees of their suppliers

Sitting around saying "Well it's always been like that" didn't repeal the injustices around those and many other historical issues.
a)i don't only work at the food bank & sit back on my laurels.i also work as a "civilian" liaison volunteer with the inner city mental healthcare trust.a lot of mental health issues are caused by substance abuse which in turn is precipitated by the awful conditions people have to contend with in our inner cities.the cost of the addiction means many don't eat.mine is a "hands on role"so don't dream of lecturing me on the causes of hardship or the solutions until you have seen the things that i see,go to the places that i go to or do the things that i have to do.
b)the supermarkets operate in a massively competitive market place.they also operate on tiny margins,industry average is between 4 & 5%.one of the reasons for that tight margin is that they have to run "loss leaders" to attract shoppers & the other reason is that a lot of their stock hits the shelves at net cost to churn cash.so that 15p tin of beans may well have cost that supermarket 20p.i know a lot of supermarket employees from senior management down.they are not exploited in my experience.of course everyone would like to earn more but the reality is that when you take into account staff discount schemes(my company is a discount service provider),uniforms so you don't have to buy clothes for work,subsidised canteens etc,most would say they do ok.
c)your final point just confirms what i said in my original reply,that you are missing the point & persist on said course.once & for all NOT ONE PERSON HAS SAID "WELL IT'S ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THAT" we have all said we know it is a problem that has been decades in the making & will probably take an equally long time to rectify and that action is starting to be taken.IN THE MEANTIME WE ALL HAVE A DUTY TO THOSE LESS FORTUNATE & THAT CERTAIN ACTIONS CAN BE TAKEN TO HELP ALLEVIATE THEIR MISERY...NOW!.now do you understand?
 
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But you can't find a cure until we accept and deal with the causes and acknowledge our part in perpetuating the problem
please read my original reply to your post & point out one line in that reply that either says or implies that i neither accept nor acknowledge either the causes(some of which are popularist flim flam & smoke screen) or our part in the perpetuation of the problem.
look forward to your reply
 
Yep. Everyone says people should make more money until they themselves have to pay more because of it.

Agreed, BUT, most of theses large food producers are making insane profits, and can often afford to pay better AND sell the food at the same price. The problem is, that would put less profit in their pockets.

I'm all for profitable business. You'll often hear that "earnings are down for company X" like they are in trouble, but what they don't often mention, is that they are making record profits, all of these stories are crafted to "justify" raising the cost of their product.

On the flipside we have become addicted to cheap food (and other goods), we spend a far less percentage of our household earnings on it than we did just a generation ago. Something has to give.
 
Agreed, BUT, most of theses large food producers are making insane profits, and can often afford to pay better AND sell the food at the same price. The problem is, that would put less profit in their pockets.

I'm all for profitable business. You'll often hear that "earnings are down for company X" like they are in trouble, but what they don't often mention, is that they are making record profits, all of these stories are crafted to "justify" raising the cost of their product.

On the flipside we have become addicted to cheap food (and other goods), we spend a far less percentage of our household earnings on it than we did just a generation ago. Something has to give.
i agree that the overall profits,in some cases,billions of £'s/$'s looks insane but,as i said in an earlier reply,due in part to loss leaders,net cost cash churning,multi buy promotions,shoplifting & wastage(that's another thorn in my side!)the industry average in the uk is only 4 to 5% net.it was the same when i worked for asda(part of wallmart) nealy 40 years ago.the mass retail food suppliers have always worked on tight margins but huge turnover makes their profits huge.there is little scope for further SUSTAINABLE price reduction,particularly when you factor in their commitment to current land banking to build more stores which in turn(in theory to some extent)should generate more jobs.i am not fighting the supermarkets cause,they have a lot to be ashamed of too,haven't we all?.just being realistic & not getting carried away on a wave of ill informed popularist hysteria fuelled by the "daily mail" brigade!
 
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i agree that the overall profits,in some cases,billions of £'s/$'s looks insane but,as i said in an earlier reply,due in part to loss leaders,net cost cash churning,multi buy promotions,shoplifting & wastage(that's another thorn in my side!)the industry average in the uk is only 4 to 5% net.it was the same when i worked for asda(part of wallmart) nealy 40 years ago.the mass retail food suppliers have always worked on tight margins but huge turnover makes their profits huge.there is little scope for further SUSTAINABLE price reduction,particularly when you factor in their commitment to current land banking to build more stores which in turn(in theory to some extent)should generate more jobs.i am not fighting the supermarkets cause,they have a lot to be ashamed of too,haven't we all?.just being realistic & not getting carried away on a wave of ill informed popularist hysteria fuelled by the "daily mail" brigade!

I work for a large regional food retailer, so I'm well aware of the profit margins and you are correct that they can be tight! We do have food chains here like Publix that pay a better wage, they grow their company slowly and carefully, and have an almost cult like following. Compare that to the other food retailers in our area that build stores on top of stores, all working to squeeze out a profit. I drive 5 miles to work, and drive past 3 of my own company's stores! In a 40 mile radius my company has 67 stores. Our competition also has many many redundant stores.

My point in my previous reply more pertained to food manufacturers and fast food.
 
I work for a large regional food retailer, so I'm well aware of the profit margins and you are correct that they can be tight! We do have food chains here like Publix that pay a better wage, they grow their company slowly and carefully, and have an almost cult like following. Compare that to the other food retailers in our area that build stores on top of stores, all working to squeeze out a profit. I drive 5 miles to work, and drive past 3 of my own company's stores! In a 40 mile radius my company has 67 stores. Our competition also has many many redundant stores.

My point in my previous reply more pertained to food manufacturers and fast food.
agree completely on the food manufacturers & fast food chains bakie,but that is an insanely competitive market too,no excuse but true nevertheless.
when we used to visit nico in miami,he was on sw 97th ter,there was a publix store within walking distance.brilliant stores and,putting my retailers hat back on,happy & helpful staff...always a sign of a good employer & guaranteed to draw shoppers to the stores.similar set up to our co-op(cooperative)stores this side of the pond.
as far as the ant hills of supermarkets you're right mate,tesco have three stores within a 4 mile radius of my home.but you know as well as i do,bakie that is as much about strategic blocking of the competition,to prevent them from building & stealing market share,as providing a shopping venue.totally insane in my view & i'm pleased to see that tesco has written off billions of £'s in last years results,due to cancellation of projected store build & therefore land bank values on it's balance sheet.so,it would appear,change however slow,is taking place.hope so mate:)!!
 
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agree completely on the food manufacturers & fast food chains bakie,but that is an insanely competitive market too,no excuse but true nevertheless.
when we used to visit nico in miami,he was on sw 97th ter,there was a publix store within walking distance.brilliant stores and,putting my retailers hat back on,happy & helpful staff...always a sign of a good employer & guaranteed to draw shoppers to the stores.similar set up to our co-op(cooperative)stores this side of the pond.
as far as the ant hills of supermarkets you're right mate,tesco have three stores within a 4 mile radius of my home.but you know as well as i do,bakie that is as much about strategic blocking of the competition,to prevent them from building & stealing market share,as providing a shopping venue.totally insane in my view & i'm pleased to see that tesco has written off billions of £'s in last years results,due to cancellation of projected store build & therefore land bank values on it's balance sheet.so,it would appear,change however slow,is taking place.hope so mate:)!!

Yes!

Grocery store building seems to have finally slowed here as well, partly because they have just about reached a saturation point, and partly that they are realizing that they need to focus on the quality ofv their existing stores, because with such fierce competition, your stores better be right or the customers are going somewhere else. Gone are the days where people are loyal to one store, they are going where the price and service are right.
 
Yes!

Grocery store building seems to have finally slowed here as well, partly because they have just about reached a saturation point, and partly that they are realizing that they need to focus on the quality ofv their existing stores, because with such fierce competition, your stores better be right or the customers are going somewhere else. Gone are the days where people are loyal to one store, they are going where the price and service are right.
absolutely!! or,because they are so close packed the shoppers are going from store to store,wherever the price comparison sites say a particular item is cheapest,buying that item & not buying the higher margin goods before moving on to the next store,which drives the bottom line down even further.... so in some respects the fallout of saturation building does benefit shoppers on the price line.sounds like we're on the same page bakie,but way off topic!!!
 
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And lets not even get into the obesity issue...folks eating too much fast food because its cheaper than buying "real" food at the grocery store...*runs and hides*
 
You can spend excessive money on junkie foods at the grocery stores too Alix. When I shop I like to look in other people's carts since many different people shop my usual store. You can almost tell national heritage by what is in the cart. Seems that Asians like lots of veggies, some lean protein, and a bit of starch like rice and noodles. Hispanics load up on different produce, flavorful meats, all kinds of beans, and the flour/corn based foods to complete their meals. Americans? Gak! More convenience foods in most carts for their week than I buy in a year! And would a fresh apple or a bunch of kale kill them? Does no one EXCEPT those of us on DC cook from scratch anymore? :ermm: Meanwhile, I load up on fresh produce, lean meats, and bacon :unsure:, and whole grains. I'll buy processed foods once in a while but they are for shortcuts, not the entire meal. My carts look pretty much un-American. :LOL:
 
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