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Old 12-29-2009, 02:01 PM   #11
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What temp is the water that you are proofing the yeast with? Normally the liquid for proofing the yeast is supposed to be 110. Also I let the dough rise a second time after I put them in a pan in a warm place. Usually on the stovetop works well for me.

Bite the bullet for a breadmaker? I see them on CL for free! That's where I got mine, and was about to give it away until I found this CR recipe!
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Old 12-29-2009, 04:42 PM   #12
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The water is between 110 and 115. The proof is always very good.
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Old 12-31-2009, 08:51 AM   #13
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if you carefully control the temperature for rising, you should getr about the same results every time if you are careful in measuring the yeast and the liquid you use for the yeast is not so hot that it kills it.

but if you change the temperature for the rising, you`ll have to forget about time and just eyeball it. overnight in the fridge doesn`t necessarily equal an hour in a warm oven.

i bake a lot of bread; less frequently during the hot summer months and at least several times a month during the winter. the temp. in my kitchen varies quite a lot, depending on the season and whether or not there`s other baking going on at the same time.

lots of factors can contribute to under-rising: too much salt, too old or too little yeast, too hot a liquid, too much sugar (though i don`t know why), over-proofing the first rise, and undoubtedly any number of other reasons.

in your case though, because you didn`t proof them at the same temp. that you usually have, i would say that all you had to do was wait another half hour or so and they probably would have been fine.



p.s. over\proofing the second time can cause the dough to collapse if it gets to the point where it`s too puffy to support the weight. in that case, even just moving it into the oven can cause it to partially collapse.
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Old 12-31-2009, 10:25 AM   #14
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Some doughs are easier to handle when they are cold. For that reason you might consider doing a first or intermediate cold rise followed by forming and a final warm rise.
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Old 12-31-2009, 10:41 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justplainbill View Post
Some doughs are easier to handle when they are cold. For that reason you might consider doing a first or intermediate cold rise followed by forming and a final warm rise.
Yes but it's not worth the ease in handling if it doesn't rise enough. At least it wouldn't be to me. If I wanted easy I'd just pop open a can of Grands and throw them in the oven!
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Old 01-01-2010, 07:25 AM   #16
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Philso, et. al.

Thanks so much for the posts. Temperature is a good thing to focus on.

First, I must admit I am a bit loose when it comes to liquid temps including the proofing water and the milk. At one time I tested the temperature of the hot water from our tap and decided it was close enough. I went back after these posts and tested again. It's about 121-122F. I don't think that's been a big problem but I've made a note for next year's CR batches to get that to 110 for both the water and the milk.

The technique I used this year is the one I've used for a number of years with good (not great) success. That method lets the dough rise for an hour in a slightly warmed over (on for 1 minute then off). I then remove the dough with as little loss of volume as possible, cut into 3 batches and roll out for the CRs. I cut each roll into 8 rolls and place in the pans.

Usually at this point I cover the pans with aluminum foil and leave in the refrigerator over night. In the morning I let the pans warm up at room temp for at least 30 minutes and then bake.

What I noticed was that the rolls out of the refrigerator hadn't risen much. I'm beginning to think the main reason was the temp of the refrigerator. I use an old one in the garage. This year my CR making was during a cold snap and I noticed the refrigerator temp had fallen just below freezing. I had actually thought I might have gotten some bad yeast so replaced it.

In a way, I had the opposite problem Philso had. Instead of a warm kitchen I had a very cold refrigerator.

Regardless, I decided to change the technique of letting the rolls rise overnight and turned to a different technique. Right after forming the rolls and getting them into the pans, I covered the pans with alum. foil and let them rise in the oven using the same technique as for the unformed dough (i.e. 1 min on, then off).

I got a bit of a rise out of the rolls, but disappointing.

Now that I'll keep an eye on temp more I'm wondering whether I may be not rising the dough optimally.

The first rise is always impressive. I will way more than double the size of the dough; possible triple the size or even a bit more.

Since I'm assuming there's a finite limit to how much the yeast can do, would it be useful to cut that first rise time (say) in half expecting more rise after the rolls are in the pan?

Or, perhaps, I bypass the first rise altogether and instead let the dough rest 10-15 minutes and then form the rolls. I could then let them rise.

Any merit to this thinking?

Liv

P.S. You are all being very helpful. I really appreciate the time your taking to post. I'm learning.
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Old 01-01-2010, 07:32 AM   #17
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I did some research on yeast and temp and realized I'm dancing very close to the kill zones. From Wikipedia:

Yeasts will grow over a temperature range of 10 C (50 F) to 37 C (99 F), with an optimal temperature range of 30 C (86 F) to 37 C (99 F), depending on the type of species (S. cerevisiae works best at about 30 C (86 F). Above 37 C (99 F) yeast cells become stressed and will not divide properly. Most yeast cells die above 50 C (122 F). If the solution reaches 105 C (221 F) the yeast will disintegrate. There is little activity in the range of 0 C (32 F) - 10 C (50 F). The cells can survive freezing under certain conditions, with viability decreasing over time.

Looks like I should be proofing 10-15F lower. At the other end, the refrig was a degree or two below 32F because of the outside temp.

It's an easy change (and actually speeds up the amount of time I spend on rolls each year) if I don't overnight them. Is there a reason to prefer an overnight cool rise to a shorter warm rise?

Liv
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Old 01-01-2010, 08:25 AM   #18
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Fermenting yeast generates some heat of it's own. We use an active dry yeast like Fleishmann's, raise dough at 65 - 70 F for upwards of two hours, punch down, place in a bowl covered with plastic film and store in a 38 F self defrosting refrigerator for 12 - 18 hours. It doubles in size while in the fridge. We punch down the cold dough, form, and allow to nearly double before baking. The balance of the rise occurs during the first 20 minutes of baking in a preheated 375 F oven.
Since water quality can affect yeast performance we limit our use of hot tap water to washing kitchenware.
Happy New Year
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Old 01-01-2010, 01:08 PM   #19
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I normally shoot for 110 degrees F.
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Old 01-02-2010, 05:54 PM   #20
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JustPlainBill

Very interesting post. That's pretty much the method I've used over the years that, this year, had rise problems. I'm beginning to conclude that my original problem was caused because the refrigerator was way too cold (just below freezing). The reason that hadn't happened before is because this is a pretty mild winter climate (usually in the upper 30s to mid-40s F). This year baking coincided with a cold snap in the teens. The refrigerator is in the garage.

The new technique I used (trying to get better results) was to do the first rise, form the rolls in the pan, do another rise (60 min), and then bake. Got some rise in the second and, of course, while baking, but still disappointing.

Is there something about a long cool rise (vs. shorter, warmer ones) worth understanding?

Also, from the posts on yeast and temp I've concluded that the temp I was using was OK although I'll drop it down a little in the future and measure to 110F.

Liv
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