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Old 12-13-2006, 03:24 PM   #1
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Rising issue

The first rise of my bread was pretty pathetic. Not double by any means. Did I kill the yeast (proofing too warm? too much salt?) old yeast? or was I not patient enough (only 45 minutes?)

I did a punch down and am on my second rise now. I'm hoping like heck it rises this time.

8 oz water
4 tbsp oil
3 tbsp honey
1.5 tbsp dry milk powder
2 cups flour
3/4 cup oatmeal
1/2 cup cracked wheat
1.25 tsp salt
1.5 tsp active yeast (my date says it is fine)

Usual bread making routine. Knead, rise, punchdown and shape into loaf, rise again and bake.

Help please?

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Old 12-13-2006, 03:49 PM   #2
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The bread I make most often is based on a recipe from The Breadbakers Apprentice and Reinhart recommends a first rise between 1 1/2 to 2 hr. If this is a recipe you are used to making are you accounting for slower fermentation due to the temperature in your kitchen being a little lower? Winter and all, you know.
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Old 12-13-2006, 04:02 PM   #3
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Alix,
just let the bread do it's thing. Most expect it to rise right now and put it in a really warm place. Me, I prefer a longer cool rise from 1-6 hrs. I did A Jacques Pepin bread that took a long rise of 6-7 hours, let me tell you I loved it..Now I plan ahead and give the bread more time. let the 2nd. rise go and see what happens..say 1-1-1/2 hrs. If it's rainy or overcast it will rise slower.
kadesma Okay all that gab and yes the yeast could be old or water too hot, but, i'm inclined to thing not enough rise time.
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Old 12-13-2006, 04:29 PM   #4
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Skilletlicker, this is a recipe I have made before, but I um...didn't take into account the weather. Oops. LOL!! I usually proof in the oven after I have had it on for a bit so figured it would be OK. I think you might have hit the nail on the head there. I always forget to take into account the weather (clear but a bit humid, we are having snow off and on today) when I bake bread. Thanks for the reminder.

kadesma, I'm in the middle of the second rise right now and it looks like it is going fine. I think I am going to let it rise til it looks right then bake it. I checked the date, yeast SHOULD be fine. I was worried my oven might have been too warm to start the proofing, but it cools off pretty quick this time of year.

Do you really use such a long rise time? I never really considered that as an option. You could start your bread in the morning, let it go almost til dinner and then have fresh bread at dinner. Hmmm. Is that recipe posted somewhere? Can you tinker with it (add cracked wheat or sunflower seeds etc.)?
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Old 12-13-2006, 06:20 PM   #5
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Kadesma and others have good suggestions. Fermentation is the process that takes place when dough sits, covered at room temperature. The professional baker calls this stage fermentation because the yeast is feeding on the sugars in the flour and fermenting. The dough rises because the gluten structure developed in the mixing process captures the alcohol and carbon dioxide gases released by the yeast in the dough. If you've ever uncovered a bowl of dough that has been sitting for an hour or two,you've smelled the alcohol that has built up as the dough has fremented. Like wine and cheese,with which bread marries so well, bread dough developes its taste through fermentation.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:36 PM   #6
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Dropped in to point my finger at the kitchen temperature, but I see that's already been figured out. Since I'm here, I'll comment on the question about a slow rise targeted to match dinner time. Theoretically it could be done, but getting the timing just right would be tricky, for much depends on the precise room temperature.

OTOH, while a single rise might be tricky, I've found that bread dough is quite tolerant of multiple rises. (For me, this has come up mainly because I was distracted by something else and didn't have time at the moment to deal with the bread.) That is, if each time it doubles, you punch down and give a brief knead, you can repeat the cycle at least over the time frame you have in mind. And, if your kitchen is below 70 degrees F (21 C?), it probably won't double more than three times anyway.

Another way to do this, btw, is to prepare the dough the night before (even a couple days before) and place in the fridge; before going to bed, punch down and cover again. Next day (i.e., baking day), take out of the fridge a few hours before baking. After two hours, punch down, shape loaves and put up for the final rise. Bake as usual.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:51 PM   #7
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Alix, the day I did this bread we did have it with supper, but,it has to sit at least 3 hours to cool down after baking..It's a large 2lb. loaf,..BUT, If you are up early, give it a try for that evening, like I said, I used mine on the same day ..I just had the fun of playing with it all day long Just remember it won't eat you up even though you have to make it in a plastic bucket
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Old 12-14-2006, 01:08 PM   #8
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Aria, thanks for the info on fermentation, I did know that already as I've been baking for 20 years or more.

Pbear42, thanks for the info on double and triple rising. I've not been adventurous enough to allow several rises. And our house is generally kept a bit on the chilly side (68) as I'm rather prone to being hot.

kadesma, *whining* Does it HAVE to sit for 3 hours???? Dang it, I have just enough time to try your recipe if it doesn't have to sit. PHOOEY! I think I'm going to try it now anyway. LOL.

While I have your attention, what temp can I proof at without killing the yeast? As I mentioned I usually put the dough in my oven to proof after I turn the oven off. Can I proof at 150 or is that too hot?
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Old 12-14-2006, 01:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alix
While I have your attention, what temp can I proof at without killing the yeast? As I mentioned I usually put the dough in my oven to proof after I turn the oven off. Can I proof at 150 or is that too hot?
Alix, I don't think 150 will work. I've heard that about 80F is optimum. I came across this site on the topic of Proofbox temperatures, heat flow in ovens. It says in part:
Quote:
The results in loaf volume are instructive, as seen in the table ("Loaf Volume at Various Proofing Temperatures"). It was reported that as proof temperatures increased the crumb grain and texture of the bread declined in quality.
Now, I'm not smart enough to fully understand everything here, but notice in the chart the steadily decreasing volume in cubic centimeters as the proofing temperature increases. The chart only goes to 125F.

Edit: Forgot to include the link. Sorry, it's added now.
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Old 12-14-2006, 01:35 PM   #10
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think of it like brewing Ale except it has Gluten in it to make it Gloopy.
the similarities are so close you can`t go wrong (yeast/sugar/temp) wise :)
as for salt, get that well mixed in the Dry parts before adding the Must.
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Old 12-14-2006, 01:36 PM   #11
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Honest, multiple rises works. I've done it many times. Only a small minority of total batches made (usually I schedule correctly), but many nonetheless.

As for proofing temp, oh no, you can't proof at 150 degrees. The yeast checks out at around 110 to 120 degrees (depending on strain and how long at temp). The simplest answer is to go with your 68 degree room temp and expect about a three hour first rise. If you want to speed things up, preheat the oven only to 100 degrees, then put in the dough. If your oven doesn't hold heat well, repeat the cycle as needed (remove the dough while running the burner). Or you can put a heating pad in the bottom of the oven, but may need to crack the door to prevent overheating (monitor oven temp with a thermometer). If this comes up a lot, consider building a proofing box.
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Old 12-14-2006, 01:39 PM   #12
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Man you guys are quick! Thanks for the info! I think I will just plan on a longer rise rather than muck about with the oven temp. And I believe you on the multiple rise thing PBear, I've just only ever done two. I'm scared to do more!

OK, I'm going to go slap some dough in to rise. Be right back.
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Old 12-14-2006, 02:16 PM   #13
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Alix, the bread you're making neds to rise in 65-70 heat, and it rises for 5 hours...Seems forever but emmmm.
as to letting it cool for three hours, well to tell the truth, I didn't, just be careful when you cut it not to squish it
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Old 12-16-2006, 01:52 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alix
The first rise of my bread was pretty pathetic. Not double by any means. Did I kill the yeast (proofing too warm? too much salt?) old yeast? or was I not patient enough (only 45 minutes?)

I did a punch down and am on my second rise now. I'm hoping like heck it rises this time.

8 oz water
4 tbsp oil
3 tbsp honey
1.5 tbsp dry milk powder
2 cups flour
3/4 cup oatmeal
1/2 cup cracked wheat
1.25 tsp salt
1.5 tsp active yeast (my date says it is fine)

Usual bread making routine. Knead, rise, punchdown and shape into loaf, rise again and bake.

Help please?
Rising depends on many things, Room temperature, strength of the yeast art two of them. Most bread recipes that I am familiar with call for a tablespoon of yeast. You may not be using enough. Proofing the yeast helps. Dissolve it in a little water and sugar, before combining it with the rest of your liquid ingredients. You could consider adding your white flour and sugar to the proofed yeast and letting it rise to a sponge before adding the other ingredients and kneading the whole. If 8 oz. of water is 2 cups, and you are using 2 cups of white flour, you will have stirrable batter, to which you are adding 1 1/2 cups of heavy grain, it doesnt sound as if you have a very kneadable dough if that is all you are using.
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Old 12-16-2006, 04:51 AM   #15
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Lots of folks have hit on lots of points. I don't really understand how you could expect this dough to rise in 45 minutes. It is a complex dough with heavy ingredients and has very little (comparatively to most bread recipes) yeast--to the point that it may even be a flawed recipe in that respect. But it will definitely take longer to rise. You have to let the dough rise to double in order for the bread to develop its internal structure.
Multiple risings do not harm bread--it can develop more flavor with the yeast fermentation. Bread is pretty forgiving. If your bread has risen to a point and it isn't convenient to bake it, punch it down and let it rise again.
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Old 12-17-2006, 04:27 PM   #16
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DinaFine, 8oz of water is one cup. So the dough is very kneadable.

Candocook, 45 minutes is what the recipe says, and I have done it perfectly many times that way. I don't think the recipe is flawed, just the baker. LOL

In case anyone is wondering, I have since learned that my yeast, while saying it is fine, is the issue. Fresh yeast on its way. Thanks for all your help.
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Old 12-18-2006, 12:12 AM   #17
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Now I'm puzzled. In the OP, you mentioned proofing the yeast, wondering whether it was too warm. I passed over that because, almost by definition, if the yeast proofed, it wasn't too warm. Maybe you're using the term differently than do I. To me, proofing means dissolving the yeast in little warm water, stirring in a touch of sugar and seeing if a layer of bubbles rises to the surface within a reasonable time (say, five minutes). How do you mean the term?
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Old 12-18-2006, 07:03 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBear42
Now I'm puzzled. In the OP, you mentioned proofing the yeast, wondering whether it was too warm. I passed over that because, almost by definition, if the yeast proofed, it wasn't too warm. Maybe you're using the term differently than do I. To me, proofing means dissolving the yeast in little warm water, stirring in a touch of sugar and seeing if a layer of bubbles rises to the surface within a reasonable time (say, five minutes). How do you mean the term?
That is what it also means to me and I even started a post much like yours. However, I googled and find that proofing also seems to mean "rising", in some vernacular. I don't use it that way. I use "rise" for dough and "proofing" for yeast activity prior to addition to ingredients.
And Alix seems to have heated an oven to 150* for a "proofing oven" for rising--which IS too hot.

And, I will also say that my kitchen is pretty regularly at 64* in winter and I have no trouble getting bread to rise--for as long as I have made bread. It could be slower, but I never go by time--just looks and whatever it takes to get to where it should be.
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Old 12-18-2006, 01:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Candocook
And, I will also say that my kitchen is pretty regularly at 64* in winter and I have no trouble getting bread to rise--for as long as I have made bread. It could be slower, but I never go by time--just looks and whatever it takes to get to where it should be.
Although I explained it poorly, the lower wintertime temperature in the kitchen was my top suspect. Starting at about 75*F, a 17*F change in temperature halves or doubles the rising time.
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Old 12-18-2006, 02:11 PM   #20
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I don't doubt at all it could be that and I thought you covered it very well. As I say, I just don't pay attention to times since with bread I find many of the measurements to be quite relative. It isn't like a cake with a predictable amount of leavening and timing.
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