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Old 05-09-2016, 12:38 PM   #1
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Singing the praises of the "natural" life

NATURE DOESN’T GIVE A [darn] IF YOU LIVE OR DIE.
April 14, 2016

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By the age of one, how many times had modern medicine saved your ass?

What about by the age twenty? How about now?

How many times has nature tried to kill you? Strep, staph, weather, tsunamis, all the vaccine preventable illnesses, tooth decay, allergies that range from life-threatening to “goddamnit, it’s spring and the trees are [reproducing],” and whatever the [darn] Gwyneth Paltrow is getting stung by bees to cure.

And the goddamn flu.

Without modern medicine, how much worse off would your life be?

If you go back to doing all things naturally, a tiny emergency turns into a big one. A long term chronic illness turns into a quick death sentence.

Say you got appendicitis a thousand years ago. Odds were that you would writhe in pain for a day or two, your appendix would have ruptured and your doctors would have given you a battery of herbs (and maybe opium because obviously). All natural treatment to an all natural problem would have left you dead. Naturally.
Much more good stuff there.

Language warning. Had to use bit.ly for the link because there's a curse word in the title. Can you guess what it is?

SciBabe
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:11 PM   #2
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.....hmmm .... and how many illnesses can be attributed to the side effects of medicines?

Herbalism has its place and was never meant to be a substitute for surgery.
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:25 PM   #3
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.....hmmm .... and how many illnesses can be attributed to the side effects of medicines?

Herbalism has its place and was never meant to be a substitute for surgery.
As I've told you many times, with medicine there is always a cost-benefit analysis to be done. Typically the benefits to be obtained far outweigh the drawbacks. Believers in pseudoscience, on the other hand, like to pretend that there are no negative side effects from using herbs and other unproven remedies. But there are many, including encouraging people to forego conventional medicine until it's too late.

"Herbalism... was never meant to be a substitute for surgery."

You should look into the history of medicine a bit more. You are completely wrong here.
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:36 PM   #4
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Nature does care. It's called Natural Selection. The weak die young and the strong live to reproduce. Since I'm human and have the will to live I take advantage to modern medicine. Nature takes the long view.
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:41 PM   #5
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Nature does care. It's called Natural Selection. The weak die young and the strong live to reproduce. Since I'm human and have the will to live I take advantage to modern medicine. Nature takes the long view.
Unless you believe that nature has a consciousness and intention - no, it does not care. Natural selection is a process, not a belief system.
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:58 PM   #6
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I shouldn't have personified Nature. You're right it doesn't care. Nature's way works to keep everything in balance. We used to think that we could bend it to our will. We keep trying but time and time again we are proven wrong.
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Old 05-09-2016, 02:36 PM   #7
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I shouldn't have personified Nature. You're right it doesn't care. Nature's way works to keep everything in balance. We used to think that we could bend it to our will. We keep trying but time and time again we are proven wrong.
Have you read any books by John McPhee? My husband has several. This one speaks to what you're saying: The Control of Nature

For our California friends, there's a section about attempts to control the effects of the fire/rain/landslide cycle around Los Angeles. Excellent book.
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Old 05-09-2016, 03:09 PM   #8
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Thumbs down

Allow me to give you a direct, true account of the more dubious and worrying side of medicine, notably its side effects.

My mother was a physically strong woman for her age. However, she did have a bit of arthritis and was given vioxx (for the pain and inflammation). One day she had a TIA (mini stroke) and I didn't associate it at all with this drug.....UNTIL I read that vioxx was taken off the US market because of its associated links with strokes and heart attacks!

She had been on vioxx long term and, alas, was taken off of it TOO LATE!!!!
She has gone downhill fast in health......
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Old 05-09-2016, 03:15 PM   #9
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Antibiotics have been overused to their detriment... Hence doctors are trying to play catch-up and not to so readily prescribe them now

Antibiotic awareness - The NHS in England - NHS Choices
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Old 05-09-2016, 03:22 PM   #10
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Allow me to give you a direct, true account of the more dubious and worrying side of medicine, notably its side effects.

My mother was a physically strong woman for her age. However, she did have a bit of arthritis and was given vioxx (for the pain and inflammation). One day she had a TIA (mini stroke) and I didn't associate it at all with this drug.....UNTIL I read that vioxx was taken off the US market because of its associated links with strokes and heart attacks!

She had been on vioxx long term and, alas, was taken off of it TOO LATE!!!!
She has gone downhill fast in health......
I'm very sorry about what happened to your mother. I truly am. Nothing created by imperfect human beings is perfect, and when something like that happens, it's very difficult to view the situation dispassionately. I could counter it with my own story, but that's not the point. The point is that, much more often than not, modern medicine as a whole works well for most people who use it.
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Old 05-09-2016, 03:25 PM   #11
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"Herbalism... was never meant to be a substitute for surgery."

You should look into the history of medicine a bit more. You are completely wrong here.
I suggest you supply the evidence for this since you are the one that is mistaken I feel.

Herbs are often deemed beneficial in the run up to a surgery procedure and also after it, i.e. not to replace it!
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Old 05-09-2016, 03:29 PM   #12
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I'm very sorry about what happened to your mother. I truly am. Nothing created by imperfect human beings is perfect, and when something like that happens, it's very difficult to view the situation dispassionately. I could counter it with my own story, but that's not the point. The point is that, much more often than not, modern medicine as a whole works well for most people who use it.
I would not disagree with that but, equally, I wonder if you are open minded enough to realise that natural therapies work very well for most people who use them too.....
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Old 05-09-2016, 04:08 PM   #13
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I would not disagree with that but, equally, I wonder if you are open minded enough to realise that natural therapies work very well for most people who use them too.....
If you can show me double-blinded, peer-reviewed, published clinical trials that prove that, yes, I'll be very open-minded. The reasons for these caveats are:

- double blinding reduces as much as possible the placebo effect and bias on the part of researchers and subjects
- peer review ensures as much as possible that the study design, data collection, data analysis and conclusions are supported and take into account previously known information about the subject of the experiment
- publishing allows other experts in the field to evaluate and critique the trials

There's no reason not to hold alternative medicine to the same standards as conventional medicine.
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Old 05-09-2016, 04:10 PM   #14
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I suggest you supply the evidence for this since you are the one that is mistaken I feel.

Herbs are often deemed beneficial in the run up to a surgery procedure and also after it, i.e. not to replace it!
You made the initial claim. It's up to you to prove it.

Maybe after dinner, I'll look into it some. In the meantime, do a search on "ancient treatments for cancer," particularly Chinese and Indian.
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Old 05-09-2016, 04:43 PM   #15
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You made the initial claim. It's up to you to prove it.

Maybe after dinner, I'll look into it some. In the meantime, do a search on "ancient treatments for cancer," particularly Chinese and Indian.
I have had confirmation of what I said via a health forum. I put the situation to them, i.e. that you claim herbalism was meant to be used in place of surgery and I refuted this and said that herbalism had its place but was not meant to be a substitute for surgery.

Before I submitted my 2nd post here on this, # 11 above, (qualifying that outlining that herbs can be of benefit used on the run up to operations and thereafter to aid in recovery i.e. not instead of an operation), I had received a reply saying just this! Also, many sites confirm this so I would ask you to supply what you claim, since you say I am wrong, notably that you think herbalism was meant to be used in place of surgery.

Since you now mention cancer, perhaps you do not know about the beneficial effect that visualisation can have on cancer?

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/abou.../visualisation

Not everything in past history will hold up of course, just as old understandings of conventional medicine have now been improved on.
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Old 05-09-2016, 04:48 PM   #16
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If you can show me double-blinded, peer-reviewed, published clinical trials that prove that, yes, I'll be very open-minded. The reasons for these caveats are:

- double blinding reduces as much as possible the placebo effect and bias on the part of researchers and subjects
- peer review ensures as much as possible that the study design, data collection, data analysis and conclusions are supported and take into account previously known information about the subject of the experiment
- publishing allows other experts in the field to evaluate and critique the trials

There's no reason not to hold alternative medicine to the same standards as conventional medicine.
You and your impossibly restrictive conditions whereby you would deem it conducive to consider natural therapies! Ha!

We must mix in very different circles since I am surrounded by those who are walking confirmations of the benefit of applying natural therapies. I could catalogue all that I have applied that works but it would be far too extensive and I feel that direct experience is not enough for you. Presumably you think we are lying? Natural therapies/remedies definitely have a lot going for them (although, of course, there are some grey areas) just as there are (considerable) drawbacks/contraindications in conventional medicine.

I guess nothing short of having us wired up in a lab would suffice for you. Never mind.
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Old 05-09-2016, 06:57 PM   #17
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Have you read any books by John McPhee? My husband has several. This one speaks to what you're saying: The Control of Nature

For our California friends, there's a section about attempts to control the effects of the fire/rain/landslide cycle around Los Angeles. Excellent book.
No, I have not read him.
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Old 05-09-2016, 07:21 PM   #18
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You and your impossibly restrictive conditions whereby you would deem it conducive to consider natural therapies! Ha!
Why is it an impossible expectation that "natural therapies" meet the same standards as conventional medicine?
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Old 05-10-2016, 04:35 AM   #19
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Why is it an impossible expectation that "natural therapies" meet the same standards as conventional medicine?
It's not but you are overlooking what I said in my previous post above # 16, i.e. I have exceeded such criteria and depicted real life cases of where natural therapies work, i.e. I am surrounded by this evidence with those that I know!

So your stipulation for such criteria is rendered redundant since it's a bit like you saying I am not sure that recipe will result in a cake when all around me I see those chomping happily into such good cake! Do you see that? If you do not accept this then all I can say that it is your loss/myopia.
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Old 05-10-2016, 09:22 AM   #20
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You are ignoring the facts that led to the development of the scientific method: in general, people tend to see cause and effect where they don't exist and they don't acknowledge the placebo effect or confirmation bias or the fact that many conditions that people complain about are self-limiting, meaning they go away with no intervention.

Without taking these into account and carefully recording medical histories, treatments and outcomes, you simply can't be sure whether a given treatment had any effect.

I'm done with this. If you want to discuss the initial post, let's get back to that.
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