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Old 10-26-2011, 10:00 AM   #1
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Detailed Information about various types of metal cookware. (LONG)

I'll preface this post by saying it's long and very detailed. If that type of post isn't what you like, then stop now and go read something else that isn't as technical as this post is. For those who like to learn about specifics in how their cookware is made and what level of quality it is, continue. You may learn a lot of information you didn't know.

I've seen a lot of posts about the types of metals and why some are better than others for cooking using various methods.

This link is to a PDF, (Portable Document Format), that shows the surface of many of the most popular types of cooking metals, under extreme magnification. I thought it might be helpful to those who attempt to explain why some types of metals are better than others when using them under specific circumstances.

First, I have to point out a few things about the subject. The best way to begin is to explain my credentials concerning the subject.

I worked for a major aircraft manufacturer as a process improvement specialist. Each area of manufacturing that fell within my sphere of knowledge, was assigned to me to examine in minute detail, and if possible, improve the processes and training for that area.

My specialty was metals. During a decade span, I re-worked the shot-peen, bead-blast areas that worked with steel and aluminum mostly. I also improved the heat-treating areas that worked with steel and aluminum. The electroplating areas were my last effort for the company before becoming bored with this line of work and switched to Database design and management for my last 10 years with the company. I worked as an Aircraft Electrician the first 5 years, trouble-shooting the wiring installation on new aircraft prior to test flights. After I learn a subject, I get bored with it easily and look for new challenges.

Ok, that said, I know metals. Steel and Aluminum especially. What I say on the subject isn't off the top of my head, but a result of learning many thousands of details about how these metals are made, formed, treated and used.

The grade of metal is determined by it's mixture of alloys and how they are formed into the final product. There are many types of mixes for each type of metal, but most consumer level metal products are made from just a few blends of alloys and treated using only a few methods.

This is what makes "Better Metal" that you've all heard of when buying cookware.

Some metals are made with higher levels of the less expensive alloys and treated using only brief, low quality standards. The resulting product can be an uneven mix of substances that again result in low quality end products. These are your $1.99 pots and pans made somewhere in Asia using who-knows-what manufacturing processes.

Pots and pans are made using many different methods of layering metals. This is mostly to improve the products life-span, heat dispersing and cooking surface properties.

Starting from the surface and working downward:

Very basically, the smoothness of the surface and its porosity are the factors that have the most influence on how food reacts when placed on the metal under varying circumstances.

Cast Iron is very porous. It's the nature of the process used to form it. You'll notice in the magnification photos that it's also very uneven. This surface, when used with oils, is able to retain a lot of oil in the pores of the metal, causing the food to literally "float" above the metal while cooking. If the cast iron is allowed to rust to more than normal, (all cast iron has rust on and in it), then that rust will interfere with the smoothness of the surface and cause roughness that will in turn cause foods to "stick" to it by becoming embedded in the pores after being gripped by the oxidized iron particles.

Try cooking on a rusty cast iron pan. The food will stick like glue.

Some cooks, (like me), never let their cast iron touch water. Not while cleaning or cooking. The pores of the iron are kept full of oil and not allowed to rust hardly at all. The pores remain pretty clear of rust.

When you wash a cast iron pan in water, the oils are removed from the pores and water allowed to penetrate into the pores. This will allow almost instantaneous oxidation, (rust), to develop down inside the pores of the metal. At that point, you can wipe, scrub, and scratch all you like, the rust is there to stay. The best you can do is oil the surface and hope that the expansion of the metal will work most of the rust out during cooking, and into your foods. Then, as long as you don't put water on it again, the rust will break up and move to the surface and out of the pores eventually. Better to use salt and oil to clean the pan and then to wipe it clean of salt as much as possible and put a continuous coating of oil covering the cooking surface. This will fill all the pores with oil, not rust.

There are different qualities of cast iron and different surface qualities to it as well. With cast iron cookware, you mostly get what you pay for unless you get lucky at a thrift shop or yard sale.

High porosity, low porosity, high finish, low finish, cast grade, alloy quality...they all have to do with the quality and performance of the end cookware product. Just because it's cast iron and *looks* the same, doesn't mean it *is* the same.

Well, I'll put that link here now and tell you that it covers many other types of cookware other than cast iron. I'll talk about them in future posts in this thread.

If you made it this far, congrats. Most people won't. With most, the desire to learn is compromised by the effort it takes to do so.

Here's the link to the magnification photos. The photos themselves say a lot.

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Old 10-26-2011, 10:08 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy View Post
This link is to a PDF, (Public Domain File)...
Sorry, PDF stands for Portable Document Format and is an Adobe Acrobat file extension.

I'll read the rest when I have a bit more time.
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:12 AM   #3
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Thanks for posting. I'll admit I skimmed down the article but still found it helpful.

I heard you shouldn't wash cast iron but I do. I lightly wash it, towel dry it, wipe it down with a drop of oil, and place in a warm oven. Always comes out smooth and rust free.
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:18 AM   #4
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Thanks for posting. I'll admit I skimmed down the article but still found it helpful.

I heard you shouldn't wash cast iron but I do. I lightly wash it, towel dry it, wipe it down with a drop of oil, and place in a warm oven. Always comes out smooth and rust free.

I wash my well-seasoned cast iron with soap when it needs it. Rinse it well, dry it thoroughly and use a little oil or PAM.

It's a total myth that water or occasional soap damages seasoned cast iron.
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:21 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Hammster View Post
Sorry, PDF stands for Portable Document Format and is an Adobe Acrobat file extension.

I'll read the rest when I have a bit more time.
Thanks, fixed. I hate acronyms.
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:24 AM   #6
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I wash my well-seasoned cast iron with soap when it needs it. Rinse it well, dry it thoroughly and use a little oil or PAM.

It's a total myth that water or occasional soap damages seasoned cast iron.
Actually, it isn't. It causes instant rust. Rust is oxidized iron. Once oxidized, it's gone, never to be seen again as iron. If that ain't damage, I don't know what is.

I don't care if you touch it with one microscopic drop of water, it will rust almost instantly and some of the iron will then be gone.

No myth at all. Pure fact.

Arguing facts doesn't change the facts.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:48 AM   #7
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Actually, it isn't. It causes instant rust. Rust is oxidized iron. Once oxidized, it's gone, never to be seen again as iron. If that ain't damage, I don't know what is.

I don't care if you touch it with one microscopic drop of water, it will rust almost instantly and some of the iron will then be gone.

No myth at all. Pure fact.

Arguing facts doesn't change the facts.

Not a legitimate concern.

If it was, my mother's skillets would have disintegrated long ago. But no, they are still around just as they were 60 years ago. SHINY AS A BOWLING BALL AND SMOOTH AS TEFLON.

And she sometimes puts hers in the dishwasher.

My own 40 years of experience cooking in and washing cast iron with water and soap also confirms that this practice does no meaningful harm to well-seasoned cast iron. Mine are very smooth and shiny and get scrubbed with water and a scrungie and possibly dish soap after every use. And I use them a lot.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:52 AM   #8
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Actually, it isn't. It causes instant rust. Rust is oxidized iron. Once oxidized, it's gone, never to be seen again as iron. If that ain't damage, I don't know what is.

I don't care if you touch it with one microscopic drop of water, it will rust almost instantly and some of the iron will then be gone.

No myth at all. Pure fact.

Arguing facts doesn't change the facts.
I don't understand. If the CI is seasoned, it's coated with a hardened coating of oil that prevents rusting. Are you saying the water penetrates that coating? I have a well seasoned CI skillet that I use soap and eater on regularly and I see no evidence of rust. If it was rusting, I'd expect to see a deterioration of the surface along the lines of seeing rust on a car body that lifts off the coating and bubbles up.
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Old 10-26-2011, 12:01 PM   #9
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I don't understand. If the CI is seasoned, it's coated with a hardened coating of oil that prevents rusting. Are you saying the water penetrates that coating? I have a well seasoned CI skillet that I use soap and eater on regularly and I see no evidence of rust. If it was rusting, I'd expect to see a deterioration of the surface along the lines of seeing rust on a car body that lifts off the coating and bubbles up.
It's a matter of degree, Andy. Modern dish soaps are designed to attack and dissolve that very coating of "seasoned" oil. Depending on how hard you scrub it, how well you rinse it, how much water gets into the pores that are opened...

If you have availability to a 400X+ microscope, get a small chip of cast iron from any welding shop, clean and season it as you would your pan.

Look at it under magnification. Then scrub it with dish soap and rinse it. Then look at it again.

The answer will be looking at you. You'll see rust on both the surface and in the pores of the metal. Depending on how thoroughly you've removed the "seasoned" coating, there will be more or less rust, but there will be rust no matter what.

I guarantee it.

It's not necessarily visible to the eye alone. Here's a trick to test. After cleaning in water and soap, rinse it to death. Then take a nice white paper towel and scrub it lightly. On that towel, you'll see discoloration. Some of that discoloration will be oxidized iron (rust). If you magnify that discoloration on the towel, you'll see gobs of rust.
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Old 10-26-2011, 12:07 PM   #10
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It's a matter of degree, Andy. Modern dish soaps are designed to attack and dissolve that very coating of "seasoned" oil. Depending on how hard you scrub it, how well you rinse it, how much water gets into the pores that are opened...

If you have availability to a 400X+ microscope, get a small chip of cast iron from any welding shop, clean and season it as you would your pan.

Look at it under magnification. Then scrub it with dish soap and rinse it. Then look at it again.

The answer will be looking at you. You'll see rust on both the surface and in the pores of the metal. Depending on how thoroughly you've removed the "seasoned" coating, there will be more or less rust, but there will be rust no matter what.

I guarantee it.

It's not necessarily visible to the eye alone. Here's a trick to test. After cleaning in water and soap, rinse it to death. Then take a nice white paper towel and scrub it lightly. On that towel, you'll see discoloration. Some of that discoloration will be oxidized iron (rust). If you magnify that discoloration on the towel, you'll see gobs of rust.
...I assumed that was oil residue. That assumption is reinforced by the fact that my pan is unchanged. If this rusting is so slow that I can't see a practical or visual difference, who cares?
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Old 10-26-2011, 12:13 PM   #11
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...I assumed that was oil residue. That assumption is reinforced by the fact that my pan is unchanged. If this rusting is so slow that I can't see a practical or visual difference, who cares?
Again, under magnification, the rust looks very jagged and has a lot of snagging points that protrude from the pores of the metal. Every bit of rust that develops will make the surface less smooth and more apt to have foods stick to it.

Like I said, it's a matter of degree. Depending on how much oxidized iron is present on the surface, it will end up in your food. Again, a matter of degree. It will affect taste and appearance of the food at some point.
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Old 10-26-2011, 02:52 PM   #12
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.. If this rusting is so slow that I can't see a practical or visual difference, who cares?

My point exactly.

It's really of no concern. And nothing to confuse people with.

A cast iron skillet washed with water and soap doesn't rust in any appreciable manner if you dry it completely.

It's a bit silly to suggest taking a microscope out and examining your skillet for rust not visible to the human eye. And that rust, if its there at all, isn't going to affect the taste, texture or color of what you cook in it.

If a skillet has visible rust in it, any normal person isn't going to use it.

All of this discussion does a disservice to people who are unfamiliar to cast iron cooking, IMO.
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Old 10-26-2011, 03:39 PM   #13
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I have a number of CI skillets. I rub them clean with salt and then put about 1/8" oil in the bottom and heat on low for about 10 minutes. My pans are ancient. My DH, on the other hand, washes these same pans with soap and water, scrubs them. If I catch him doing this, I turn them upside down over a burner on low to dry them, and then add the oil and heat them. (And yes, I have begged him not to do this, I've pleaded with him not to wash them, and yes, I may even have bitched at him--doesn't matter. He has a Ph.D. in Materials (ferroelectrics and ferromagnetics are two of his areas of expertise, so why would he listen to a Linguist about how to take care of CI cookware?). I even took to hiding the pans when I went out of town so he wouldn't ruin the years of seasoning while I was away...he found them. They do come back when I do the oil treatment...but still, I'd like them "washed" using the salt-oil method.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:03 PM   #14
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I think you're saying that the introduction of any water to a cast-iron skillet causes rust, and that rust is bad for the skillet. It seems to me that most (but perhaps not all) cooking will involve some water. Does it follow that cooking in a cast-iron skillet may cause it to rust?
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:38 PM   #15
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Here is some information directly from the website for
Lodge Cast Iron.


Cleaning your Lodge Cast Iron
After cooking, clean utensil with a stiff nylon brush and hot water. Using soap is not recommended, and harsh detergents should never be used. (Avoid putting a hot utensil into cold water. Thermal shock can occur causing the metal to warp or crack).
TIP: If you are having trouble removing stuck-on food, boil some water in your pan for a few minutes to loosen residue, making it easier to remove.

Towel dry immediately and apply a light coating of oil to the utensil while it is still warm.
TIP: Do not let your cast iron air dry, as this can promote rust.
Store in a cool, dry place. If you have a cover, or lid, for your utensil, place a folded paper towel in between lid and utensil allowing air to circulate. This prevents moisture from collecting inside the utensil, which can cause rust.
TIP: The oven is a great place to store your cast iron; just remember to remove it before turning on the oven.

NEVER wash in dishwasher.

If for some reason your utensil develops a metallic smell or taste, or perhaps rust spots (maybe a well-meaning relative washed your utensil in the dishwasher or with soap thinking they were being helpful), never fear. Simply scour off the rust using a very fine grade of sandpaper or steel wool and refer to our section Re-seasoning Your Lodge Cookware.
IMPORTANT PRODUCT NOTE: If you have a Lodge Grid Iron or Pro Grid Iron Griddle, make sure to place it over two burners, allowing the griddle to heat evenly and avoid a stress break or warping. It is also a good to preheat the griddle in the oven before placing over burners on top of stove.


Lodge Cast Iron Cookware - America's Original Cookware - South Pittsburg, TN USA
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Old 10-27-2011, 05:12 AM   #16
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When overwhelmed with opposing argument, it's best to give in.

I believe that washing CI in water is not good for it. Obviously more disagree than agree.

I concede that more people wash thier cast iron in water than those who don't.

Please, ignore the advice I offered.

I'm very sorry that I tried to impose my way of thinking on anyone else.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:31 AM   #17
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Does this mean that you might also concede on the MW vs. Mayo argument? <g>.

FWIW, DH is coming to the farm today--I've hidden the CI skillets.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:49 AM   #18
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Does this mean that you might also concede on the MW vs. Mayo argument? <g>.
I'm sorry I ever got involved with anything concerning the Mayo/MW argument.

Whatever anyone says is fine with me.

I concede on everything that anyone has ever said in any discussion I've been in.

I'm wrong on anything I've said.

Unless someone doesn't like that. Then, I'll go along with anything they would like me to.

Works for me.
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:42 AM   #19
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I have been away from DC for a spell. Seems like I have missed some interesting discussions! I may as well add my two cents to this one. While what you say is true, the degree of rust is, IMHO, nearly insignificant, as long as the pan is cleaned, dried, and properly stored. I doubt that a small amount of water will do any real damage. It was, however, a very interesting read. Thanks!
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