Paradigm shift

[JustJoel]

Back ‘14, Mark got me a Kitchenaid professional 500 stand mixer for my birthday. I remember wanting one, but I can’t remember why I wanted one. I had never baked a loaf of bread, and my cake and cookie baking skills were (and still are, with a few exceptions) sorely lacking.

When we moved here in ‘15, the stand mixer kind of got buried amidst other unpacked boxes. When I started exploring the world of bread, I wanted it back in my life and in my kitchen. Buying a replacement, like one does sometimes when something gets misplaced, was out of the question because of the price, so I decided to get a bread maker. I was very happy with it, as it was inexpensive and turned out to be a good choice for a newbie baker. In fact, I’m still quite happy with it, although I rarely use any of its cycles besides “mix” and “dough” anymore.

Yesterday, we finally started unpacking some boxes that had been neglected for 2 years (that’s a whole ‘nuther story, so don’t start in on me), and lo and behold! There was my stand mixer with the grandiose name, all silver (gray?) and looking brand new (which it basically is). I haven’t found the beater or whisk attachments yet, but the dough hook was packed in the mixer’s bowl, yea! As I read up on it, my trepidation’s grew. While using a stand mixer appears to offer a lot more control over the dough, it seems that using one to make bread will necessitate changing my technique quite a bit to get that control.

I know that was a really long lead-up to what I want your advice on, my apologies. What can all of you master bakers tell me about using a stand mixer versus my happy little bread maker? What changes will I have to make in my now developed techniques, and in my thinking? And please let me know what your preferences are! I know many bakers prefer to do it all by hand, which is an attractive thought, but out of the question for me because of the arthritis in my hands, and while no-knead breads are currently all the rage (I’ve had a good deal of success with that method), the no-knead method definitely lends itself better to some types of bread than others. I’m sure these questions have come up many times in the threads of this fine forum, but it would be a great pleasure for me if we could reopen the discussion, if only because I like the interaction with real, live people!

So, friends, in the immortal words of Joan Rivers, can we talk?

 

[salt and pepper]

JJ, If all your using it for is to make bread, then stick to your bread machine.

If your making a pizza dough for instance, that calls for kneading for 30 minutes the KA is the tool to use. Same with heavy dough like cookies. I use mine a couple times a week to mix many things, cheesecake, meatloaf,whip cream,sausage etc. Oh? And bread too. I find making bread dough and baking it in a cast iron bread pan is much better the using a bread machine, but thats just me. Oh, and the attchments come in handy too.

 

[Andy M.]

I use mine to make bagels and english muffins, cheesecake, cookies. I've never had a bread machine but it appears to make bread making a lot easier for the baker.

As bread machines were made to take the place of the traditional process, I can't imagine there is a bread you can make in the BM that you can't make using a mixer and oven. Not to mention you can make all kinds of different shapes.

 

[GotGarlic]

It depends entirely on what kinds of bread you want to make. Breads made in the bread machine are those that don't require a poolish or long fermenting time. If you want to continue to make those kinds of breads, continue using the bread machine.

I got the KitchenAid for heavy doughs that require a lot of mixing, like springerle cookies and Italian ciabatta bread. My recipe for ciabatta calls for mixing the biga (aka poolish - small amounts of yeast, flour and water) the night before, then adding the rest of the ingredients and kneading for about 20 minutes; it would take a lot longer by hand.

I also use it for other types of cookies, Swedish meatballs, and cheesecake batter. I use the paddle attachment for these, though.

So the mixer gives you more options, but for simple breads like sandwich bread, dinner rolls, bread sticks, etc., the bread machine works just fine.

What kinds of bread do you want to make? I'm curious to know what is scaring you so much

 

[FrankZ]

When I started using the stand mixer for bread I realized I could it could do most of the work for me. I weigh out everything, dump it in the bowl, put on the bread hook and start it slow to mix. After a minute I would turn it up to knead speed and let it work until the dough was ready.

Out of the bowl onto a floured surface for a quick hand knead (to feel out the dough) and shape. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

 

[GotGarlic]

When I started using the stand mixer for bread I realized I could it could do most of the work for me. I weigh out everything, dump it in the bowl, put on the bread hook and start it slow to mix. After a minute I would turn it up to knead speed and let it work until the dough was ready.

Out of the bowl onto a floured surface for a quick hand knead (to feel out the dough) and shape. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

A bread machine does that, too, and you don't have to watch it. Then it does the first rise, then you can shape it, let rest again and bake in the oven. Easier peasier

 

[JustJoel]

It depends entirely on what kinds of bread you want to make. Breads made in the bread machine are those that don't require a poolish or long fermenting time. If you want to continue to make those kinds of breads, continue using the bread machine.

I got the KitchenAid for heavy doughs that require a lot of mixing, like springerle cookies and Italian ciabatta bread. My recipe for ciabatta calls for mixing the biga (aka poolish - small amounts of yeast, flour and water) the night before, then adding the rest of the ingredients and kneading for about 20 minutes; it would take a lot longer by hand.

I also use it for other types of cookies, Swedish meatballs, and cheesecake batter. I use the paddle attachment for these, though.

So the mixer gives you more options, but for simple breads like sandwich bread, dinner rolls, bread sticks, etc., the bread machine works just fine.

What kinds of bread do you want to make? I'm curious to know what is scaring you so much

I don’t know is “scared” is the right word, lol. I’m excited to use the KA, maybe just a bit nervous about making the change. I don’t know how old you are, or what your attitude is toward change is, but in my case, as I age, I find myself tending toward the things I know and shying away from newer things that would take the place of the things (or ideas) to which I’m accustomed.

I think I remember now that what prompted me to want a stand mixer was a recipe for rugelach that I read in a foodie magazine. The recipe, as I recall, was fairly complicated for a novice baker, and there was a lot of creaming, beating, and other steps not usually associated with “bread.” I think I also had some notion that I was going to spend the rest of my life striving to become some sort of cookie king!

And I really do want to branch out from “just” bread. Cookies, yes. And cake. I’m an abysmal failure when it comes to making cake. Upside-down cakes are the only kind I have any success with. Even box mixes tend to fluster me. And somewhere down the line, should I live long enough, pastries and pies. I became adequately proficient at yeast breads, even though my confidence level at the start was zero (and I didn’t have you all to bug with my incessant questions). So, forging ahead! I don’t have a weight problem, and I really like sweet things.

 

[JustJoel]

A bread machine does that, too, and you don't have to watch it. Then it does the first rise, then you can shape it, let rest again and bake in the oven. Easier peasier

That was my initial attraction to the bread maker; dump in the ingredients, watch a few episodes of L&O, and then rip into a fresh loaf! It actually worked that way, until the breads that strived for got more and more complicated. Adding ingredients during the kneading, or adding them slowly during the mixing. And the machine has a set rise time on the dough and baking cycles. I also found that I did need to watch the dough as the machine did it’s work, in case the dough was over or under hydrated. And the importance of feeling the dough during the knead became ever so clear! That’s not impossible with a bread machine, but it can be a nuisance. Then there are those times that the machine’s cycle doesn’t afford enough kneading time, or it over-kneads; one finds that one has to turn the machine off or reset it, and always from the beginning of whatever cycle one uses.

 

[Cooking Goddess]

...I don’t know how old you are, or what your attitude is toward change is, but in my case, as I age, I find myself tending toward the things I know and shying away from newer things...

Don't blame "age", sweetie. It's just you as you age, I guess. I've got nearly a decade on you and am still willing to learn new things...as long as it doesn't make my aging body hurt.

...the breads that strived for got more and more complicated. Adding ingredients during the kneading, or adding them slowly during the mixing. And the machine has a set rise time on the dough and baking cycles. I also found that I did need to watch the dough as the machine did it’s work, in case the dough was over or under hydrated. And the importance of feeling the dough during the knead became ever so clear! That’s not impossible with a bread machine, but it can be a nuisance...

If you have to adjust hydration, you can get that done in the first 5 minutes or so. After that, you're just over-mothering your dough. This link (Bread Machine Tips) has a little bit of useful info when it comes to adding things into the bread machine while using the dough cycle. Maybe that website has some rabbit holes that provide even more info. I ain't looking, or I won't get out of them for at least an hour.

...When we moved here in ‘15, the stand mixer kind of got buried amidst other unpacked boxes...Yesterday, we finally started unpacking some boxes that had been neglected for 2 years (that’s a whole ‘nuther story, so don’t start in on me)...

During our marriage, from our first apartment until this house, we've moved a total of four times. Each move involved more stuff. As I go through our basement and closet boxes with a very critical eye in anticipation of hopefully making a moved back home, I find myself often saying "I didn't know I still had THAT!" or "I thought I got rid of that a long time ago"...in which case it goes on the "get rid of" pile. Happy hunting!

 

[GotGarlic]

Don't blame "age", sweetie. It's just you as you age, I guess. I've got nearly a decade on you and am still willing to learn new things...as long as it doesn't make my aging body hurt. [emoji38]

+1 [emoji38]

I think I'm about the same age you are, Joel.

If you have to adjust hydration, you can get that done in the first 5 minutes or so. After that, you're just over-mothering your dough.

Another +1. I've made white sandwich bread, whole wheat bread, cinnamon raisin bread, rye bread, French bread and rolls and yeast rolls (off the top of my head) in my bread machine without a lot of fiddling, except at the beginning, as CG said. It all works fine.

Anyway, good luck and let us know what you're making! [emoji2]

 

[FrankZ]

A bread machine does that, too, and you don't have to watch it. Then it does the first rise, then you can shape it, let rest again and bake in the oven. Easier peasier

Aye, you may be right. A bread machine does what it does in a limited sort of way and I have to then store it. A stand mixer does a lot more things. I can store one.

Frankly the bread machine didn't do the mix and knead any better than the stand mixer does. Once I get it close with the mixer I get to finish by hand. Since bread is not an exact science you can feel if it needs more attention before you start down the first rise.

I also liked to do sour dough, which the machine I had didn't handle well, since it is on timer and the rise with sour dough really inexact.

Oh.... and I can make cookies. I don't make a lot of cookies, but I can.

 

[GotGarlic]

Aye, you may be right. A bread machine does what it does in a limited sort of way and I have to then store it. A stand mixer does a lot more things. I can store one.

Frankly the bread machine didn't do the mix and knead any better than the stand mixer does. Once I get it close with the mixer I get to finish by hand. Since bread is not an exact science you can feel if it needs more attention before you start down the first rise.

I also liked to do sour dough, which the machine I had didn't handle well, since it is on timer and the rise with sour dough really inexact.

Oh.... and I can make cookies. I don't make a lot of cookies, but I can. [emoji3]

I didn't say it was better, and I did say the stand mixer is more versatile. My bread machine was a gift many years ago and we couldn't afford a KitchenAid for many years, so... It works for quite a few basic bread recipes, as I mentioned above.

 

[JustJoel]

Trepidation not unfounded!

Well, my initial trepidation at switching from a bread machine to a stand mixer was not entirely misplaced. I used the KA for the first time yesterday, and the result was, while not a total failure, certainly a disappointment.

My first mistake was choosing a bread recipe with which I was unfamiliar. It is not wise to switch out more than one element at a time. I know this, but I couldn’t help it; the bread looked so delicious! (You can find it here, at King Arthur Flour.)

I think my biggest mistake was over-kneading, though, and over-flouring. My bread machine “mix” cycle consists as a two minute mix and thirteen minute knead, and seems to be perfectly timed for just about any dough, straight or enriched. I usually observe during the first few minutes of kneading to see how it’s coming together, then I don’t need to bother with it any more. With the stand mixer, I have no idea when the process is complete. I know the recipe clearly says “sticky, but will form a ball. The dough did start coming together, but some of it still persisted in sticking to the bottom of the bowl. So I kept on kneading and a bit of flour, then a bit more, and then a bit more. The dough finally stopped sticking to the bottom, but by that time it was very stiff, not sticky at all, and the surface wouldn’t smooth out. I’m guessing that in well-hydrated doughs, a bit of sticking to the bottom is to be expected, and you just use a dough scraper to get it out.
Anyway, the crumb was still nice and soft and moist, but the crust was hard as a brick, a typical sign of over-kneading, I’ve read.

I will try making this bread again, if only for the aroma that filled my house for the rest of the evening, but I think it’ll wait until I’ve used he KA a few more times with doughs that I’m familiar with. I highly recommend that you try out that recipe, though. It’s kind of a more elegant version of monkey bread in which the buttery stuff goes inside the bread instead of being brushed on top.

 

[profnot]

Bread machines cannot make a crusty loaf. I love with a crust like you get at bakeries in Paris. Even better, a crusty sourdough bread.

To get a good crust, the bread must be baked in an oven alongside (or above) a pan of water.

I had a bread machine for around 6 weeks. I would make bread with fresh rosemary. I tried several suggestions from the internet to get a great crust but none of them worked.

Good thing, in a way. For me, fresh bread in the morning is the fastest way to gain weight.

 

[JustJoel]

Bread machines cannot make a crusty loaf. I love with a crust like you get at bakeries in Paris. Even better, a crusty sourdough bread.

To get a good crust, the bread must be baked in an oven alongside (or above) a pan of water.

I had a bread machine for around 6 weeks. I would make bread with fresh rosemary. I tried several suggestions from the internet to get a great crust but none of them worked.

Good thing, in a way. For me, fresh bread in the morning is the fastest way to gain weight.

When I first got my machine, I let it do all the steps. It made bread that wasn’t bad, but I was unsatisfied with shape of the loaf, and as you said, the lackluster crust. And of course the machine can’t make hamburger buns, or monkey bread, or... Anyway, after a couple of weeks I pretty much stopped using it for everything but the mixing and kneading, and sometimes I’d let it rise, too.

 

[RPCookin]

Well, my initial trepidation at switching from a bread machine to a stand mixer was not entirely misplaced. I used the KA for the first time yesterday, and the result was, while not a total failure, certainly a disappointment.

My first mistake was choosing a bread recipe with which I was unfamiliar. It is not wise to switch out more than one element at a time. I know this, but I couldn’t help it; the bread looked so delicious! (You can find it here, at King Arthur Flour.)

I think my biggest mistake was over-kneading, though, and over-flouring. My bread machine “mix” cycle consists as a two minute mix and thirteen minute knead, and seems to be perfectly timed for just about any dough, straight or enriched. I usually observe during the first few minutes of kneading to see how it’s coming together, then I don’t need to bother with it any more. With the stand mixer, I have no idea when the process is complete. I know the recipe clearly says “sticky, but will form a ball. The dough did start coming together, but some of it still persisted in sticking to the bottom of the bowl. So I kept on kneading and a bit of flour, then a bit more, and then a bit more. The dough finally stopped sticking to the bottom, but by that time it was very stiff, not sticky at all, and the surface wouldn’t smooth out. I’m guessing that in well-hydrated doughs, a bit of sticking to the bottom is to be expected, and you just use a dough scraper to get it out.
Anyway, the crumb was still nice and soft and moist, but the crust was hard as a brick, a typical sign of over-kneading, I’ve read.

I will try making this bread again, if only for the aroma that filled my house for the rest of the evening, but I think it’ll wait until I’ve used he KA a few more times with doughs that I’m familiar with. I highly recommend that you try out that recipe, though. It’s kind of a more elegant version of monkey bread in which the buttery stuff goes inside the bread instead of being brushed on top.

Hi JJ... just a suggestion. Most of the recipes I have which specify using the mixer to knead suggest around 8 minutes at most with the mixer, then a few folds by hand... just one or two to "feel" the dough. Most say to either add liquid or flour to adjust the hydration, usually specifying that the dough should either "clean the bowl" or not quite clean for wetter dough.

My ciabatta recipe says to just mix for only a minute or 2 until the ingredients (minus salt), just come together, then rest for 30 minutes (autolyse), then machine knead for 7-10 minutes (I've never gone more than 7, and it doesn't quite clean the bowl), then about 2 kneads by hand before entering the rest- fold cycle. I think you are correct that you may have let it go too far in the machine.

 

[GotGarlic]

Bread machines cannot make a crusty loaf. I love with a crust like you get at bakeries in Paris. Even better, a crusty sourdough bread.

To get a good crust, the bread must be baked in an oven alongside (or above) a pan of water.

I had a bread machine for around 6 weeks. I would make bread with fresh rosemary. I tried several suggestions from the internet to get a great crust but none of them worked.

Good thing, in a way. For me, fresh bread in the morning is the fastest way to gain weight.

No, they cannot. That's not what they are intended for. They do a great job of making dough for lots of other types of bread, though.

 

[JustJoel]

Seems like it worked this time!

I think I may have gotten the kneading right this time! I can’t check the crumb yet, the loaves are still too hot. But the certainly look beautiful on the outside!



Thanks for all your advice, friends!

The recipe for these loaves can be found at King Arthur Flour

 

[Cooking Goddess]

Make sure to take a picture after you cut them...and before you eat them up completely!