GB
Chief Eating Officer
No one said to blindly follow the FDA, but you can't argue with the science. The rate that the bacteria multiply at temps between 40 and 140 are well documented.
No one said to blindly follow the FDA, but you can't argue with the science.
Well, I ate it... never got sick... *yet*... It's been a couple of days now..
Thanks for all the replies... I do believe, however, that the fact this turkey was butchered as well as it was, plus the brine helped preserve it...
To clarify, the bird was kept below 38 degrees before we started the brine. The tempurature change occured when I had to add more brine (from the hot-water solution) - due the fact that the bringing vessel was larger than what we had anticipated - so I had to add more solution to submerge the bird - we didn't have enough ICE in it to cool the water back down enough - hence the 68-degrees.
So, yeah, I guess a pound of salt helped out.. hehe.. salt-cures and salt as a preservative was used all the time before refridgeration..dunno..
I've seen folks bring up what the FDA says - really? Does anyone here really give a hoot about the FDA? The same administration who says we have to overcook our hamburger, pork and chicken? Really?
Just because they do that does not mean that the rate bacteria multiply within the danger zone has not been quantified and well documented. Your dad also does not see the cases of food poisoning that occur (and yes they do occur) from those practices in Russia.
Just because it is done and your dad did not see first hand any problems really does not mean anything at all as far as safety goes.
So.. cooking it to temp wouldn't kill off any bad bacteria then?
Why do you think the way it was butchered, or as you said earlier, its source, would make it safer? All barnyard animals are contaminated with salmonella and botulism to some extent (this just talks about salmonella; botulism bacteria live in dirt everywhere): http://nyschap.vet.cornell.edu/module/salmonella/section3/SalmonellaTeachingSlides.pdf
So you added *hot* brine partway through the brining process? Or at the beginning?
Well, as GB said, salt curing and preserving are very different from brining. And it's important to remember that while people in the past did all kinds of things regarding health, they were not very healthy overall, primarily due to infectious disease. I can find references if you're interested, but from previous research on this topic for other forums, I can tell you this:
- In 1900, half of all children born in the United States died before their first birthday.
- In 1900, the average life expectancy in the U.S. was about 47; most deaths were in childhood due to diarrhea, which of course is a primary symptom of food poisoning.
There's no law that says you *have* to overcook anything; they provide guidelines that probably err a bit on the side of caution, but if you don't like the FDA, how about the Mayo Clinic?
Mayo Clinic - Check the Temperature to Avoid Food Poisoning
All that means to me -Cp is that people are not following the FDA guidelines and getting food poisoning. Those figures do nothing to bolster your point.
That really does not help your point, because as you pointed out by eating a bird that has been in the danger zone for at least 6 hours, just because we have refrigeration does not mean it is used properly.The point being, that even with our wide-spread refridgeration we get just as sick as those who don't use it.. .
That really does not help your point, because as you pointed out by eating a bird that has been in the danger zone for at least 6 hours, just because we have refrigeration does not mean it is used properly.
Because people here do not practice good food safety.No, but it does underscore how - even without refridgeration, people don't get more sick than we do....
That really does not help your point, because as you pointed out by eating a bird that has been in the danger zone for at least 6 hours, just because we have refrigeration does not mean it is used properly.
-cp,
I raise my own meat, as organically as I can, and we do our own butchering. I have e-coli on my property as evidenced by a goat getting an e-coli infection in her udder one year. Please do not think e-coli does not happen at a small butcher shop and act accordingly on this mis-perception.
-Cp said:During my brining process - much to my wife's dismay - we found that the turkey was at 68-degree's for about 6 hours before we put it back in the fridge to lower it below 40...
-Cp
I respect you and your opinion/position, and the passion in whch you state it. However, I don't share your view, but hey, that's ok. I am curious though, why was your wife dismayed?
For certain, the way an animal is raised and butchered greatly affects its overall health to humans - why do you think it's always commercial Beef that gets the e-coli? One never hears of beef from a small butcher getting this. Again, it's in the handling of the animal.
Sorry - not true - At the beginning of the 20th century, for every 1000 live births, six to nine women in the United States died of pregnancy-related complications, and approximately 100 infants died before age 1 year.
Achievements in Public Health, 1900-1999: Healthier Mothers and Babies
(emphasis added)From Alton Brown:
"Alton: I do not always agree with the government and in this case I think they're way off base. For one thing, Trichinella spiralis die at 137 degrees. Of course in this case they would have had to survive the curing process which is highly doubtful. The water activity level of a country ham is simply too low to support that kind of life. Also, T spriralis have been nearly eradicated from the American hog population through the use of better feeds. As far as I know, the only instances of trichinosis in recent years involved wild game such as bear and puma."