Bread Making Invite 4 All - a Collaborative Bread Thread

[oldcoot]

Thanks for all the kind - if undeserved - words, Pete. You must remember, I, like you, am a beginner at the bread baking thing, so my thoughts here are simply what I have experienced, and should not be taken to much to heart.

Also, Pete, don't be hesitant with the Biga-sponge-starter thing. They can add a nice flavor, and need not otherwise affect your "recipe" I simply make a batter of the water/yeast and a little flour and let it stand. Overnight gives the flavor I prefer (about 12 hours)

Keep havin' fun. (That's really the whole point for us amatuers, isn't it?)

 

[subfuscpersona]

hi oldcoot!

I'm a great fan of yours. I've read all your posts to DC. I've learned a lot from you You're an experienced baker and not afraid to experiment.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread. The pictures you included were great.

I would like to comment on some of the parts of your post...

First, the "Biga" thing. Using the posted "Bakers' Percentages" (100% flour, 74% water, and 0.2% AD yeast) I made my biga - or rather bighino, I guess - using 5.4 oz AP flour, 4 oz (1 cup) warm water, and 0.1 oz AD yeast
Covered the bowl tightly with plastic wrap and set aside at room temp (75F day, 60 F night) for 23 1/2 hours. Had a pleasant, slightly sour aroma. Half an inch of water on top.

Maybe you were aiming for a slight "sour dough" flavor, but, IMHO, your rising time was too long, given that the biga was rising at 75F for about 12 hrs and at 60F for about 12 hrs. One indication of this is that it had water on top. You shoudn't get that kind of seperation in the biga (see my pix of this biga on pg 1 of the thread).

If you want a 24 hr rise, keep the temp closer to 60F for the entire time. Even at this temp, about 12 hrs should be sufficient. The key is that the biga approximately triples in bulk. When this has happened, it is time to either use it or refrigerate it to stop the yeast growth.

Commercial yeast cannot, at a certain point, continue to multiply when the preferment gets too acidic yet the acidity is a natural by-product of yeast growth. Acidity is what you can sense in the sour aroma. If the dough gets too acid, the yeast starts to die. (This is in contrast to true "sourdough starters" which are cultivated by capturing wild yeasts naturally present in the air. These wild yeasts can tolerate higher acidity and will continue to multiply.)

Formed dough and placed it in pyrex loaf pan. It took 2 hours to double!

This is about right. However, my experiments lead me to the conclusion that, for this kind of bread, it is sufficient to have the dough rise in the pan to about 1-1/2 its original size. I find that gives me better oven spring (eg - further rise when baking)

Into a preheated 400 F oven for 35 minutes. I expected addtonal rising in the oven - didn't happen! Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Howcum???? Anybody????

I posted recipes, pictures and comments re my experiments using this biga for a loaf-style bread. They're on page 3 of this thread - see my attempts at white bread with a pre-ferment, My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part I and My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part II (Unfortunately, due to the switch to a different forum software, my posts now require scrolling horozontally to be able to read all the text. Am clueless whether this can ever be corrected.)

Not sure what to say here. I've continued to make this bread and I typically get an additional one-inch rise when baking it. I find that the oven spring happens (if its going to happen at all) during the first 15-20 minutes of baking.

While you're using (like me) pyrex bread pans,. I do note you're baking at an initial 400F, rather than the 450F temp recommended in my recipe.

Did you continue to bake the bread at the lower temp that was recommended after the first 20-30 minutes? Did you also do the "drying out" stage?

Here's the result: Flavor not great. Slightly sour, but not that nice "sourdough" kind of sour. Texture fair, a tad heavy for my liking. Nice thin crust,'tho. Loaf weighed 1.2 lbs. ...
Conclusion: Bigas, sponges, etc. are fine, and add flavor and may improve texture some, but I have had equally good or better results without them. So I am still undecided.

I would be the first to admit that making bread using preferments is a lot more work than just
making an ordinary loaf dough.

I know you've posted a lot of tips and recipes for producing great tasting bread without this extended approach. You also like to experiment with producing a "sourdough" bread with commercial yeast. However, breads made with preferments are not intended to produce that "sourdough" flavor. They have, if well made, their own, unique flavor but it is not "sourdough". That doesn't mean you can't experiment (how else can one learn?); it just means that these kinds of breads are not designed for the sourdough approach.

These doughs tend to be a lot "wetter" than I'm used to. Due to the high water content, they are fragile during the
rise and require extremely gentle handling. I am still experimenting myself. I am a struggling student of this approach, not an expert by any means.

However, My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part II does not disappoint me. The texture (what it looks like when sliced) has small holes throughout. It is not heavy at all. The crust is thin and crackly (especially on the top, where it is exposed to evaporation during baking). The flavor is great. Keeping qualities are poor (it only stays fresh for 1-2 days) but that doesn't matter since it is usually consumed within 24 hrs.

In one of my posts in this thread, I mentioned that friends and neighbors also get the fruits of my labors. It is really helpful to me to get feedback from others about my bread-making experiments.

I will say that My White Loaf Bread with Biga Redux - Part II has gotten high praise from everyone I've given it to. I have several neighbors in my apartment building who have asked to get a loaf of this bread whenever I make it.

I am still struggling with free-form bread using preferments, as all can see by looking at my post my Freeform Loaf with Preferment - Part I on page 5 of this thread. The breads I've baked with this technique have, so far, never equalled the taste and texture of My White Loaf Bread with Biga.

Do please continue to experiment with preferments and post your thoughts, musings, results etc. to this thread.

This is a collaborative thread that solicits responses from all Readers

SF [2620]

 

[Audeo]

Absolutely outstanding thread, subfusc! What an incredible pleasure to find and re-read after such a time.

 

[johnjohn]

Well, my attempts aren't really following the rules of this thread in that I'm not using the stated preferment, but I don't see a lot of activty here, so I'll just jump in. If there's a more appropriate place to go, please feel free to point me in that direction.

I'm at the beginning of my yeast bread "career," and thoughlessly decided to go with the baguette as the first bread that I'd like to work on. I've thumbed through the King Arthur cookbook as well as the Baker's Apprentice in the bookstore. At home, though, I'm leaning on my copy of "The Best Recipe," "Cookwise," and my subscription to Cooks Illustrated's web archive.

I started out with CI's baguette recipe/method, but decided early on that I'd go with Shirley [font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]Corriher's (Cookwise) additions of Semolina and bean flour. For flavor. I admit that my first attempt without the benefit of CI's 12-16 hour refridgerator final proofing affected that decision.

Sponge:
6 oz warm water
5 oz King Arthur unbleached a.p.
[/size][/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]1 oz Semolina
[/size][/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]1 tsp soy flour
1/4 tsp a.d. yeast
250 mg vitamin C tablet crushed to powder
(I split a 500 mg tablet in a pill splitter, then crushed it in a pill crusher)


Dough:
10 oz unbleached a.p. flour
4 oz water
3/4 tsp a.d. yeast
1 tsp salt (right before first dough rise)

The CI method involves an approximatly 6 hr pre-ferment, which is then mixed with the dough ingredients (yeast and water until incorporated, then flour). The description states that the dough should be fairly dry, but mine is, in three tries, too wet to handle. This third time I've finally added around 1/2 cup of bread flour to dry out the dough enough to actually handle and shape according to the directions.

Any ideas on why such a specifically weighed recipe like this wouldn't work when I'm using the exact brand of flour specified?
[/size][/font]

 

[johnjohn]

So I posted this reply, but it didn't move on the "last post" sort, nor did I show up as the last poster, despite numerous refreshes. In addition, I showed up as the author, but with zero posts. So, a bump.

 

[johnjohn]

So, the action shots of my loaves coming out of overnight retarded proofing, then baking and interior. For now, the pictures are attachments.

Pluses: Beautifully crunchy crust, soft pocketed interior

Minuses: Needs more salt for flavor. It's *ahem* possible that I forgot to add it to the final dough.

The texture is exactly where I want it to be. I'm not seeing a whole lot of flavor benefit from the 18 hour proof in the fridge. No blisters which is what I was told to expect.

Comments?

Hello? Is this thing on?

 

[amcardon]

I made my biga yesterday, let it sit, went to work with it today and it was exactly like you described. Started working in the dough and was very surprised at the strong vodka-like aroma. I've never made bread from any kind of starter before (i.e. biga, levlian, poolish, sponge, etc...) and really didn't know what to expect. My dough is proofing right now so we'll see how the final result is!

Side note - my bread always turns out awful anyway so I honestly don't expect great results... I'm no baker, that's for sure! I love working with caramel and chocolate, bread has just never been my forte no matter how hard I try. I've even made bread at the side of a great Dutch baker and the bread we made didn't turn out! She said that was the worst her bread has ever turned out! I'm cursed!

 

[amcardon]

Okay, so honestly this is the best bread I have ever made! Not only does it look good (which usually isn't so) but it tastes GREAT! There is SO much more flavor in this bread than any I have made or any that my wife has made (and she makes pretty darn good bread...)! I have Beranbaum's Bread Bible and I've been too intimidated to try anything, maybe this will give me a little boost of confidence! I wish I had a digital camera to show my results! I never thought I could get this excited about bread!

 

[johnjohn]

Okay, so honestly this is the best bread I have ever made!
[..]
I never thought I could get this excited about bread!

I've started a biga too for my attempt at a whole wheat ciabatta. I'll post pictures as I work it.

 

[subfuscpersona]

... my attempts aren't really following the rules of this thread in that I'm not using the stated preferment, but I don't see a lot of activty here, so I'll just jump in.

There are no real "rules" - just use a preferment for your bread (which you did) which keeps the thread on-topic.

I loved your post and the follow-up pictures. Both the preferment recipe and the final dough recipe were really clear. Thanks for taking the time to post them.

QUESTION(S):
> what was the oven temp and baking time for your baguettes?
> did you transfer the risen loaves to a baking stone or just put the pan in the oven? (looks like the latter to me)
> did you use any home steaming techniques?

TIA

 

[johnjohn]

There are no real "rules" - just use a preferment for your bread (which you did) which keeps the thread on-topic. [..] Both the preferment recipe and the final dough recipe were really clear. Thanks for taking the time to post them.

Ok, thanks. I'll keep posting my results, then.

I loved your post and the follow-up pictures.

Well... I couldn't get a clear picture of the interior structure at the very end. I kept getting pictures which looked like I was shaking the camera. I'll have to find a completely different forum to post questions about that. Or is there a food photography section of this one?

QUESTION(S):
> what was the oven temp and baking time for your baguettes?
> did you transfer the risen loaves to a baking stone or just put the pan in the oven? (looks like the latter to me)
> did you use any home steaming techniques?

I cooked at 500 degrees F for 12-15 minutes.

I cooked directly on the cookie sheet, though I did spray it with oil AND sprinkled some cornmeal along the bottom. I'm going to use parchment paper from now on, though. Easier and cleaner. That oil never seems to clean off the sheet pan.

I didn't use any steaming techniques.

Thanks for taking interest!

 

[subfuscpersona]

Two Questions for amcardon

I made my biga yesterday, let it sit, went to work with it today and it was exactly like you described.

I'm curious what biga recipe you used. Was it the one from The Italian Baker by Carol Field mentioned in this thread and available here Biga Recipe from The Italian Baker by Carol Field

Okay, so honestly this is the best bread I have ever made! Not only does it look good (which usually isn't so) but it tastes GREAT!...

Were you using one of the recipes posted in this thread? If yes, which one?

 

[amcardon]

Kind of... I went off the recipe you posted but sort of combined it with one of my friend's. She had used that recipe in the past and had made some changes for the climate/elevation here. Not huge differences, but she combines flours (50% bread flour, 35% AP and 15% of her home-ground wheat) and adds a little lemon juice to the biga... The lemon juice was mainly for the phytic acid.

 

[subfuscpersona]

I was always kinda disappointed that my posts re making a white loaf in a loaf pan using Carol Field's biga recipe never really displayed properly in the browser after our switch to new forum software.

For those who still have an interest, I have combined all 3 of my posts (complete with links and pix) in a single page which is both more viewable and (hopefully) printable than the originals. You may see (or download it) from DCposts-myLoafBreadWithBiga

I continue to work on my freeform loaf with biga - in fact, I just took a loaf out of the oven 5 minutes ago. Look for a post from me on my progress in the next few days.

subfuscpersona [3545]

 

[pckouris]

HELP!!!

What happen yesterday is that I had to interupt my baking and get to work.
The bread was already in the lightly greased bowl rising. Next would have been after it completely rose the next step would be to plop it on a floured board and form into what ever bread you desire.

I couldn't do that so I covered it with plastic and put it into the refrig.

Today I took it out and it was cold of course. I plopped it on the board and kneeded it a bit to "warm" it up and put it back into the greased bowl and covered it for rising. I put it in a warm place.

Now, it's been an hour and half and it looks doubled.
I am going to put it on the board and make baggettes (about three) or hogie sized rolls (about 6), then put them on a sheet pan (cookie sheet) cover and let rise again.

The Question is: Am I going to have good bread at the end? I am doing just the regular routine. Should I be doing something else?

 

[johnjohn]

I think you'll be fine.

 

[pckouris]

Well johnjohn it turn just okay. The crust was a little too thick. I guess because I beat it up too much. But I will eat it anyway and try again without interuptions.

 

[Chief Longwind Of The North]

Butter-Sponge Bread

I decided to check my sourdough on Saturday and found that it had sat too long and wouldn't rise when fed. So I decided to make a standard yeast bread. It was a great success so I'm posting the recipe. It was one of the best White Breads I've yet made.

Ingrediants:

5 cups flour
3 cups water, about 105' F. temperature
1 tbs. dried yeast
1/8 cup light corn syrup
4 tsp. salt
1/2 cup cooking oil

Mix the corn syrup, yeast and 1 cup water together in a glass or plastic bowl. Let sit in a protected place for abut ten minutes.

In a seperate bowl, combine the flour and salt. When the ten minutes has elapsed, check the yeast/water mixture. It should be very frothy. Pour this and the cooking oil into the dough. Add the remaining water. Stir with a wooden spoon to mix the ingredients, then knead until the dough is smooth and elastic. If it is too sticky, add 1/8 cup four and knead into the dough.

When the dough is correct, it should be lightly sticky, smooth and elastic. Cover the bowl.

Heat an additional 2 cups of water in a microwave-safe container until it boils (about 2 minutes). Place the bowl containing the bread dough over the hot water and close the microwave door. This will heat the sough sufficeintly to get the yeast working, without killing the yeast. Let rise for an hour, or until doubled in bulk.

Remove from the microwave and reheat the water. Place 3/4 of the bread dough into a loaf pan (it should half fill the pan) and place back on the hot water. Again close the door. Let rise for 3 hours. This will give the dough sufficent time to both rise and relax. The four hour rise time will give you a tender and light crust, with a very moist and soft inner structure.

Bake at 350 degrees for about 35 minutes. The bread will be golden in color and should sound hollow when lightly tapped with a knuckle. At this point, remove from the oven and place on a cooling rack. Brush with melted butter or cooking oil on all sides.

I let this bread rise for so long as I got distracted and forgot about the bread during the second rise. When I baked it, it came out so very good. The bread has a delicate flavor and texture. It is so delicate that you need to slice at least inch thick slices or they will fall apart.

I toasted this bread and it had excellent texture for a good strawberry jam. I also heated it with butter, in the microwave for 15 seconds. It soaked the butter in alike a sponge, hence the name. It was also great when brushed with EVOO and grilled to a golden brown. You have to use with garlic powder rather than rubbing with fresh garlic though as it tears too easily.

This bread soaks up a brothy soup like no other, and due to its mild flavor, goes with any flavor soup, or sauce.

I really like this bread and will be trying the technique with whole wheat. This recipe would make outstanding hot-crossed buns or dinner rolls as well.

Seeeeeya; Goodweed of the North

 

[Chief Longwind Of The North]

Bump!

Seeeeya; Goodweed of the North

 

[subfuscpersona]

my Freeform Loaf with Preferment - Part II

my Freeform Loaf with Preferment - Part II

Hello fellow bakers! I have been learning and baking and am now happy to present the fruits of my knowledge.

I'm giving a link to a page on my personal website for this post since the DC "reply" box is not set up for the kind of lengthy post (with formatting and photos) that I wanted to include. Everything is available at my Freeform Loaf with Preferment Part II
so click that link, read my stuff, and then click the link at the bottom of that page to return here to this thread at DC and post your feedback.

At my Freeform Loaf with Preferment Part II
you will find
> detailed discussions of equipment
> detailed recipes, by weight and volume, for both the preferment and the final bread
> bakers percentage formulas for the preferment and the final bread
> detailed kneading instructions for hand or stand mixer
> detailed shaping and baking instructions
> copious pictures to guide you in your efforts

...peruse, enjoy, post back...my home page contains easy links so you can post back to this thread

PLEASE GIVE FEEDBACK!

many thanks - SF [4510]