AllenOK
Executive Chef
I just acquired a quantity of Saf-Instant yeast. Can I use this, teaspoon for teaspoon, in place of Active Dry Yeast?
TIA
TIA
Yeast help
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oldcoot
Senior Cook
That answer poses another qestion: What is the result of sing "too much" east? And how much is "too much"?
subfuscpersona
Sous Chef
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re how much is "too much" yeast
I bet this was a rhetorical question on your part, oldcoot
:!: It depends on the kind of bread you're making, right? More yeast gives a faster rise but time develops flavor.
A sweet dough with butter/milk/sugar is getting flavor from those ingredients plus the dough is suppposed to be on the sticky side and not heavily kneaded so "more" yeast is appropriate.
If you're using the "artisan" slow rise approach a lot less yeast than is typically seen in bread recipes is called for.
Recipes geared to beginning bakers (especially the ones you see on flour sacks or in mixer manuals) frequently call for too much yeast b/c the authors don't trust the experience and intelligence of their readers. Plus they assume the baker is always in a hurry and doesn't want the whole process to take a long time. IMHO, a lot of bread recipes from older cookbooks plus many found on the 'net call for "too much" yeast, possibly for these very reasons.
Experience + experimentation right? And, of course, the feedback from bakers who've already done that (like I find here!) No reason not to "stand on the shoulders of giants"
oldcoot said:
I bet this was a rhetorical question on your part, oldcoot
:!: It depends on the kind of bread you're making, right? More yeast gives a faster rise but time develops flavor. A sweet dough with butter/milk/sugar is getting flavor from those ingredients plus the dough is suppposed to be on the sticky side and not heavily kneaded so "more" yeast is appropriate.
If you're using the "artisan" slow rise approach a lot less yeast than is typically seen in bread recipes is called for.
Recipes geared to beginning bakers (especially the ones you see on flour sacks or in mixer manuals) frequently call for too much yeast b/c the authors don't trust the experience and intelligence of their readers. Plus they assume the baker is always in a hurry and doesn't want the whole process to take a long time. IMHO, a lot of bread recipes from older cookbooks plus many found on the 'net call for "too much" yeast, possibly for these very reasons.
Experience + experimentation right? And, of course, the feedback from bakers who've already done that (like I find here!) No reason not to "stand on the shoulders of giants"
subfuscpersona
Sous Chef
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AllenMI said:
most likely you already know this but, unlike AD yeast, instant can be added directly to ingredients without having to be dissolved first
Saf-Instant is the yeast I always use and with great results, Allen. You've received some great advice already, so allow me only to add this accurate table for future reference on yeast substitutions.
http://breaddaily.tripod.com/yeast.htm
http://breaddaily.tripod.com/yeast.htm
oldcoot said:
I'm with you sub - knowing oldcoot - it sounds like someone is setting out a mine field ....
Depending on the type of dough and the type of flour(s) and other ingredients - the weight of dry yeast to the total batch weight can range from 0.7% to 3% - with 1.5% being about average for most breads.
Too much yeast? It's not listed in the "ordinary bread faults and their causes" in my bakers textbook ("The Bakers' Manual" by Joseph Amendola - 1987 edition - instructor at the CIA) ... but guessing, less yeast flavor, coarser grain, and all of the other problems associated with "overproofing" or proofing at too high a temp.
Actually, sub - you CAN mix active dry yeast with the dry ingredients just the same as instant yeast ... it's called the "Straight", "Rapid Mix", or "Dump" method depending on which book you are reading. Proofing the yeast first (in warm water) is called the "traditional" method - apparently used mainly before expiration dates to make sure the yeast was still active before spending all that time to hand mix and knead dough only to find out the yeast was dead.
jasonr said:
Yeast falls into one of two catagories - active or dead. If it's dead, nothing will activate it - if it's active, all it takes is for it to get wet. True, proofing the yeast before adding to the dry ingredients might make it behave differently than just adding it to the dry ingredients and then adding the wet .... but, I've got 5 books here that all say you can do it either way.
I have two books that say otherwise. My Williams Sonoma Essentials of Baking states that active dry needs to be hydrated in warm water to function. My Professional Pastry Chef (Bo Friberg) does not say it outright, but does say that if you are using active dry yeast in place of fresh compressed in a recipe calling for cold liquid, you should warm a portion of the liquid and dissolve the yeast in it before mixing in the rest of the cold liquid. I am positive that I have read elsewhere that active dry explicitly requires warm liquid to function, as opposed to instant, which can work in liquid of any temperature.
I'm gonna settle this right now. I've dissolved about 1 TBSP of AD yeast in about 1.5 cups of cold tap water and about 1/2 tsp of sugar. If it foams up, then I'm wrong, if it stays inert (as I expect) then that proves that AD yeast cannot activate in cold water.
OP
OP
AllenOK
Executive Chef
Thanks everyone! I bookmarked that table, and will refer back to it a needed. I'm planning on making my Onion Bread formulation tomorrow, to show my DW what real bread is like
subfuscpersona
Sous Chef
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My, my, this thread has taken an interesting turn.
Most of what I'm going to say is irrelevant to the initial question and already known to the participants but I'm powerless to resist.
re Active Dry vs. Instant yeast
The basic distinction is how the yeast is intended to be used, given the processing techniques of the producer. Active dry is intended to be added to wet ingredients. Instant yeast is intended to be added to dry ingredients.
Instant yeast is a great boon for a professional bakery since the time (and labor) required to dissolve yeast is eliminated and we all know that "time is money". It is a convenience for the home baker.
If bakers always did things according to other's intentions, that would be the end of the story. Before we go there, here is a bit of info on "intentions" culled from rec.food.baking
Obsessed home bakers are notorious for breaking the rules - rec.food.baking has threads where bakers report adding AD to dry ingredients, Instant to wet ingredients with no adverse results. The bias, however, is to report successes, not failures.
re Dissolving vs Proofing Active Dry yeast
Dissolving a solid in a liquid is exactly what it says. Does the temperature of the liquid matter? Sure - yeast is killed at a temp of about 130F. "Warm" (100-125F) water probably helps the yeast dissolve slightly more quickly - cool water will do the trick.
Dissolving is not proofing. Proofing is exactly what it says; you're looking for "proof" that the yeast can multiply. Adequate "proof" is visible bubbles (a by-product of yeast multiplication) or a "yeasty" smell or some other criterion easily accessible to humans without microscopes :? To proof yeast, you dissolve it and give it some food - a little sugar or flour is most common b/c they're so convenient.
If you just dissolve yeast in water but don't give it some food you're not "proofing" it. You don't know whether the yeast is dead or alive or how robust (on the average) all those zillions of yeast cells actually are. On the other hand, companies that sell AD yeast would go out of business pretty quickly if their product didn't work or needed expensive storage conditions to survive. The commerical manufacture and sale of AD yeast started around 1870 (in the US) so they've had lots of practice.
Morale: want to proof your AD yeast? Go ahead. But it's probably unnecessary.
Most of what I'm going to say is irrelevant to the initial question and already known to the participants but I'm powerless to resist.
re Active Dry vs. Instant yeast
The basic distinction is how the yeast is intended to be used, given the processing techniques of the producer. Active dry is intended to be added to wet ingredients. Instant yeast is intended to be added to dry ingredients.
Instant yeast is a great boon for a professional bakery since the time (and labor) required to dissolve yeast is eliminated and we all know that "time is money". It is a convenience for the home baker.
If bakers always did things according to other's intentions, that would be the end of the story. Before we go there, here is a bit of info on "intentions" culled from rec.food.baking
Obsessed home bakers are notorious for breaking the rules - rec.food.baking has threads where bakers report adding AD to dry ingredients, Instant to wet ingredients with no adverse results. The bias, however, is to report successes, not failures.
re Dissolving vs Proofing Active Dry yeast
Dissolving a solid in a liquid is exactly what it says. Does the temperature of the liquid matter? Sure - yeast is killed at a temp of about 130F. "Warm" (100-125F) water probably helps the yeast dissolve slightly more quickly - cool water will do the trick.
Dissolving is not proofing. Proofing is exactly what it says; you're looking for "proof" that the yeast can multiply. Adequate "proof" is visible bubbles (a by-product of yeast multiplication) or a "yeasty" smell or some other criterion easily accessible to humans without microscopes :? To proof yeast, you dissolve it and give it some food - a little sugar or flour is most common b/c they're so convenient.
If you just dissolve yeast in water but don't give it some food you're not "proofing" it. You don't know whether the yeast is dead or alive or how robust (on the average) all those zillions of yeast cells actually are. On the other hand, companies that sell AD yeast would go out of business pretty quickly if their product didn't work or needed expensive storage conditions to survive. The commerical manufacture and sale of AD yeast started around 1870 (in the US) so they've had lots of practice.
Morale: want to proof your AD yeast? Go ahead. But it's probably unnecessary.
I did have a senior moment and used the wrong word when I said yeast was either "active" or dead - I should have said alive or dead. Obviously, yeast can be dormant (not active) but very much alive.
I must admit that this culinary school textbook I have is about 32 years old - so maybe they didn't have bread machine, RapidRise or Instant yeasts back in 1972 - which prompted the author (instructor at the CIA for 22 years at the time of the first publication) to state that there were only two forms of yeast - compressed and active dry? But, the dough temperature is stressed - there are about 5 pages devoted to having the dough at 76-80-F at the end of mixing/kneading - calculating the heat generated by the machine and friction, taking into consideration the temp of the flour, room, and water, and adjusting the water temp to get the dough to the right temp.
Now, having "seemingly" advocated a haphazard straight "mix it all together in one step" method - that is not how I do it, whether using AD or RapidRise yeast. I warm my mixer bowl under hot water, put it on my machine, add 105-F water, sugar, and the yeast and let it dissolve/proof while I measure out everything else. Aside from the text book - the other books that I have that advocate the straight method do so for new bakers so they don't have to worry so much about using too hot of water.
Thanks, sub! Good info.
Maybe someday I'll break down and pay the $12 S&H to get a $4 box of SAF-Instant and give it a try.
I must admit that this culinary school textbook I have is about 32 years old - so maybe they didn't have bread machine, RapidRise or Instant yeasts back in 1972 - which prompted the author (instructor at the CIA for 22 years at the time of the first publication) to state that there were only two forms of yeast - compressed and active dry? But, the dough temperature is stressed - there are about 5 pages devoted to having the dough at 76-80-F at the end of mixing/kneading - calculating the heat generated by the machine and friction, taking into consideration the temp of the flour, room, and water, and adjusting the water temp to get the dough to the right temp.
Now, having "seemingly" advocated a haphazard straight "mix it all together in one step" method - that is not how I do it, whether using AD or RapidRise yeast. I warm my mixer bowl under hot water, put it on my machine, add 105-F water, sugar, and the yeast and let it dissolve/proof while I measure out everything else. Aside from the text book - the other books that I have that advocate the straight method do so for new bakers so they don't have to worry so much about using too hot of water.
Thanks, sub! Good info.
Maybe someday I'll break down and pay the $12 S&H to get a $4 box of SAF-Instant and give it a try.
Although I have read that instant is superior to AD, I am convinced that this difference is nominal. Don't waste your time with instant; it doesn't keep as well as AD, and I have noticed no substantial difference in quality between instant and AD. I use either active dry or fresh compressed.
subfuscpersona
Sous Chef
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That's odd b/c it worked for me - 1 tsp sugar dissolved in 1/4 cup cold tap water - added 1/2 tsp AD yeast straight from the freezer and stirred. I marked the level of the liquid. After 15-20 min it looked like thisjasonr said:
oldcoot
Senior Cook
For what it's worth [probably not much! ] I have made plain white bread both ways: "proofing" the yeast first in warm water, and tossing it in dry with all the other dry ingredients (flour & salt]. Also I have done it the latter way using cold lliqids.
I have been unable to detect any difference.
In reading "explanations" in various tomes, I find many are merely opinions of the writer and have little or no basis in fact. For that reason I am a little skeptical of most of the instructions I read that don't initially make sense to me. Occasionally I'm right - most of the time I get in troyble!
BTW, I have found questions posed to the yeast manufactreres - Fleischmann's, Red Star, SAF - have been answered courteously and promptly. Seems like they oughta know, doesn't it?
] I have made plain white bread both ways: "proofing" the yeast first in warm water, and tossing it in dry with all the other dry ingredients (flour & salt]. Also I have done it the latter way using cold lliqids. I have been unable to detect any difference.
In reading "explanations" in various tomes, I find many are merely opinions of the writer and have little or no basis in fact. For that reason I am a little skeptical of most of the instructions I read that don't initially make sense to me. Occasionally I'm right - most of the time I get in troyble!
BTW, I have found questions posed to the yeast manufactreres - Fleischmann's, Red Star, SAF - have been answered courteously and promptly. Seems like they oughta know, doesn't it?
bege
Senior Cook
jasonr said:
It doesn't keep well?
If SAF-Rapid Rise qualifies as "instant", do you want to hear about my 11 year old yeast? Still going strong. I have taken good care of it. Stored in the freezer, with only a small amount, 1/4 to 1/2 cup, stored up-side down in a jar, in the frige.
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