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Old 07-24-2017, 08:05 PM   #61
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Preventing disease outbreak is a pretty good use of their time, imo. Pasteurization is a thing for a reason.
Pasteurization was a process developed because dairies had moved into the cities where large populations resided. The cows got no fresh grass, and for various other reasons that I'm sure most can imagine, developed diseases and milk became contaminated. Once they moved the dairies out of the cities, the issues were...no longer an issue.

There have been 239,884 documented outbreaks due to pasteurized milk in the past few decades and 620 deaths. The nation’s largest recorded outbreak of Salmonella, which occurred from June of 1984 through April of 1985, killed 18 people and sickened over 200,000.
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Center for Disease Control recently issued a public warning about the dangers of raw milk. Siding with corporate dairy and attempting to re-inoculate the public with fear (especially since consumer-interest in raw milk has risen 40% in recent decades), the agencies posted a “reminder” that between 1998 and 2005, raw milk was implicated in 45 food-borne illness outbreaks, 1007 individual cases, 104 hospitalizations and 2 deaths.
When raw milk champions Sally Fallon and Thomas Bartlett went looking for the data that supports these claims, they couldn’t find it. The reference that the FDA and CDC cited, the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, provided no such information. No supporting data could be found in any other FDA or CDC document and demands for clarification have not been addressed.
I'll take raw milk from a dairy I know and trust any day over milk that pasteurization has destroyed and me and my family are healthier for it.
Here where I live, MS13 has taken over several towns and are killing children if they wont join the gang...I'd prefer my law enforcement deal with REAL life threatening issues, not imagined ones. No one on Long Island has ever suffered from illness due to poor milk being sold by the Amish. There are several parents however, that are mourning the loss of their children because of gang violence.
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:46 PM   #62
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......you think they'd have something better to do with their time.
Exactly.
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Old 07-24-2017, 09:22 PM   #63
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Pasteurization was a process developed because dairies had moved into the cities where large populations resided. The cows got no fresh grass, and for various other reasons that I'm sure most can imagine, developed diseases and milk became contaminated. Once they moved the dairies out of the cities, the issues were...no longer an issue.
It's always scary when a "health professional" doesn't understand or accept the germ theory of disease. Your history is also faulty.

"The US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) says improperly handled raw milk is responsible for nearly three times more hospitalizations than any other food-borne disease source, making it one of the world's most dangerous food products.[16][17]Diseases prevented by pasteurization can include tuberculosis, brucellosis, diphtheria, scarlet fever, and Q-fever; it also kills the harmful bacteria Salmonella, Listeria, Yersinia, Campylobacter, Staphylococcus aureus, and Escherichia coli O157:H7 [18][19] among others.

"Pasteurization is the reason for milk's extended shelf life. High-temperature, short-time (HTST) pasteurized milk typically has a refrigerated shelf life of two to three weeks, whereas ultra-pasteurized milk can last much longer, sometimes two to three months. When ultra-heat treatment (UHT) is combined with sterile handling and container technology (such as aseptic packaging), it can even be stored unrefrigerated for up to 9 months.

"Before the widespread urban growth caused by industrialization, people kept dairy cows even in urban areas and the short time period between production and consumption minimized the disease risk of drinking raw milk.[20] As urban densities increased and supply chains lengthened to the distance from country to city, raw milk (often days old) became recognised as a source of disease. For example, between 1912 and 1937 some 65,000 people died of tuberculosis contracted from consuming milk in England and Wales alone.[21] Because tuberculosis has a long incubation period in humans, is was difficult to link unpasteurized milk consumption as the cause to the effect of disease."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization
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Old 07-24-2017, 09:36 PM   #64
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It's always scary when a "health professional" doesn't understand or accept the germ theory of disease. Your history is also faulty.

"The US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) says improperly handled raw milk is responsible for nearly three times more hospitalizations than any other food-borne disease source, making it one of the world's most dangerous food products.[16][17]Diseases prevented by pasteurization can include tuberculosis, brucellosis, diphtheria, scarlet fever, and Q-fever; it also kills the harmful bacteria Salmonella, Listeria, Yersinia, Campylobacter, Staphylococcus aureus, and Escherichia coli O157:H7 [18][19] among others.

"Pasteurization is the reason for milk's extended shelf life. High-temperature, short-time (HTST) pasteurized milk typically has a refrigerated shelf life of two to three weeks, whereas ultra-pasteurized milk can last much longer, sometimes two to three months. When ultra-heat treatment (UHT) is combined with sterile handling and container technology (such as aseptic packaging), it can even be stored unrefrigerated for up to 9 months.

"Before the widespread urban growth caused by industrialization, people kept dairy cows even in urban areas and the short time period between production and consumption minimized the disease risk of drinking raw milk.[20] As urban densities increased and supply chains lengthened to the distance from country to city, raw milk (often days old) became recognised as a source of disease. For example, between 1912 and 1937 some 65,000 people died of tuberculosis contracted from consuming milk in England and Wales alone.[21] Because tuberculosis has a long incubation period in humans, is was difficult to link unpasteurized milk consumption as the cause to the effect of disease."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization
Yes all those people died from TB contracted by cows that were kept in urban settings, not fed grass, often given dirty water causing "white poison". All the other diseases as well were linked to cows that were given a poor diet in poor living conditions. Is it possible that a private dairy can have poor conditions as well? Sure, that's why I get to know my dairy farmers and they allow me to inspect their cows and the diet they feed them. I can conjure up as many references to counter your view of pasteurization as you can for raw milk.
NUTRIENT DEGRADATION BY PASTEURIZATION:
Vitamin C
Raw milk but not pasteurized can resolve scurvy. “. . . Without doubt. . . the explosive increase in infantile scurvy during the latter part of the 19th century coincided with the advent of use of heated milks. . .” (Rajakumar, Pediatrics. 2001;108(4):E76).
Calcium
Longer and denser bones on raw milk (Chapter 14 from History of Randleigh Farm-PDF).
Folate
Carrier protein inactivated during pasteurization. (Gregory. J. Nutr. 1982, 1329-1338).
Vitamin B12
Binding protein inactivated by pasteurization.
Vitamin B6
Animal studies indicate B6 poorly absorbed from pasteurized milk (Chapter 14 from History of Randleigh Farm-PDF).
Vitamin A
Beta-lactoglobulin, a heat-sensitive protein in milk, increases intestinal absorption of vitamin A. Heat degrades vitamin A. Said and others (Am J Clin Nutr. 1989;49:690-694. Runge and Heger. J Agric Food Chem. 2000 Jan;48(1):47-55).
Vitamin D
Present in milk in protein-bound form, assimilation possibly affected by pasteurization. Hollis and others ( J Nutr. 1981;111:1240-1248).
Iron
Lactoferrin, which contributes to iron assimilation, destroyed during pasteurization.
Iodine
Lower in pasteurized milk. Wheeler and others (J Dairy Sci. 1983;66(2):187-95).
Minerals
Lactobacilli, destroyed by pasteurization, enhance mineral absorption (MacDonald and others. 1985).

We will just have to agree to disagree. I'll take mine raw and you can take yours pasteurized.

Anyone who is interested in the facts regarding the safety and benefits of raw milk should look into the Weston Price Foundation website.
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Old 07-25-2017, 01:26 AM   #65
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Collecting raw cream floating on top of the milk in the separating vat while still warm, all I needed was a couple of drops to make my coffee just right.

Taking the milk that the milkman left on the doorstep inside on a freezing cold morning and the cap had popped off because the milk below the cream had expanded when frozen. As a kid, you got to lick the cream covered cap.

The smell of a barn on a cold winter morning while the cows waited to be hooked up.

City kids will never have memories like this.

Raw milk has a very special taste. And all the goodness and taste hasn't been cooked out of it. You can only get raw milk in Massachusetts with a doctor's prescription. Too bad. When Pirate was born, he was the only child who got to taste raw milk when I stopped nursing him at four months.

BTW, mother's milk is raw milk. I sold mine after my third child. I was supplying milk for three babies. Mine and two premies. Sadly the premies only lived for about two weeks.
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Old 07-25-2017, 07:08 AM   #66
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Collecting raw cream floating on top of the milk in the separating vat while still warm, all I needed was a couple of drops to make my coffee just right.

Taking the milk that the milkman left on the doorstep inside on a freezing cold morning and the cap had popped off because the milk below the cream had expanded when frozen. As a kid, you got to lick the cream covered cap.

The smell of a barn on a cold winter morning while the cows waited to be hooked up.

City kids will never have memories like this.

Raw milk has a very special taste. And all the goodness and taste hasn't been cooked out of it. You can only get raw milk in Massachusetts with a doctor's prescription. Too bad. When Pirate was born, he was the only child who got to taste raw milk when I stopped nursing him at four months.

BTW, mother's milk is raw milk. I sold mine after my third child. I was supplying milk for three babies. Mine and two premies. Sadly the premies only lived for about two weeks.
Ah...I wish I had breast fed my kids. Back in those days it was not encouraged like it is today. My long time neighbor Marie, is a retired maternity nurse about ten years older than me. We often compare notes on the thens and nows of medicine. They were instructed to feed the breast fed babies formula when they were away from their moms and the practice was only stopped a few years ago...
My daughter has a hectic work schedule and yet continued to breast feed until Zachary was a year old...I was very proud of her.
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Old 07-25-2017, 07:30 AM   #67
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It's always scary when a "health professional" doesn't understand or accept the germ theory of disease. ...
It is not about understanding or not understanding. It is about Over Regulation. Yes, milk should pasteurised, but if I Want to buy raw milk from a Farmer, he/she should not bare responsibility for my health and I should think with my head what I am doing. Same goes to many other things in US where lawyers have sued professionals, be it a farmer or a doctor, left and right, and idiots on Jury have sited with them. Thanks to that medical care is so expensive today along with many other things because producers, be it a product or a service, have to back themselves up with mega insurances.
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Old 07-25-2017, 07:53 AM   #68
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It is not about understanding or not understanding. It is about Over Regulation. Yes, milk should pasteurised, but if I Want to buy raw milk from a Farmer, he/she should not bare responsibility for my health and I should think with my head what I am doing. Same goes to many other things in US where lawyers have sued professionals, be it a farmer or a doctor, left and right, and idiots on Jury have sited with them. Thanks to that medical care is so expensive today along with many other things because producers, be it a product or a service, have to back themselves up with mega insurances.
I will absolutely agree on the over regulation. I'll even submit that mega dairies should pasteurize milk as it's not likely they can contain the bacteria as these cows are genetically bred for massive milk production and as a result, combined with lack of grazing and exercise are not as healthy as non genetically modified cows who are exposed to sunlight, grazing and humane care. That being said, I feel that my farmer has reasonable responsibility for contaminant free milk. Keeping the dairy clean, monitoring heifers for illness and strict aseptic techniques while milking.
Before drinking raw milk, my daughters family was constantly passing around minor colds, suffering from allergies ect. It all stopped within a month.
With all the disease processes linked to pasteurized milk, I now have the opinion it is only slightly healthier than a snickers bar.
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Old 07-27-2017, 10:19 PM   #69
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Old 07-28-2017, 08:23 AM   #70
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I am sure that the majority of our members had a glass of milk with their meal. And milk in their cereal. So my questions are:

Do you still or occasionally drink milk with your meal?

Do you have occasionally dry cereal with milk?

Is milk a regular item when you go shopping?

How much milk do you go through in a week?

In my home, I can go through at least two gallons a week.
Never drink milk with a meal - actually never drink milk on it's own. I have hot chocolate made with milk at bedtime as it helps to stop my reflux waking me up in the night. (I don't really like chocolate but the drink does the trick) and only have a tiny splash in my tea.

I have milk on cereal

Not when I go shopping - we still have doorstep delivery in the UK

I live alone and have 3 pints a week unless I need more for baking or cooking. If I do I just leave a note in the empty (glass) milk bottle for the milkman when he comes in the morning. (Eat your hearts out, Yanks )

Shop bought milk comes in non-biodegradable plastic containers - a no-no in my household and they cause major pollution problems. When "re-cycled", despite the plastic being re-used, some waste in tiny particles still gets into the sea and water courses and we eat the fish which have absorbed it and it gets into us. Not good.

My doorstep milk comes from local farmers whereas shop milk can have travelled all round the country before it gets to Tescos, Sainsbury's, (name your supermarket), etc. In itself this causes pollution and doesn't do the quality of the milk much good.

OK. Rant over.
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Old 07-28-2017, 08:37 AM   #71
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Never drink milk with a meal - actually never drink milk on it's own. I have hot chocolate made with milk at bedtime as it helps to stop my reflux waking me up in the night. (I don't really like chocolate but the drink does the trick) and only have a tiny splash in my tea.

I have milk on cereal

Not when I go shopping - we still have doorstep delivery in the UK

I live alone and have 3 pints a week unless I need more for baking or cooking. If I do I just leave a note in the empty (glass) milk bottle for the milkman when he comes in the morning. (Eat your hearts out, Yanks )

Shop bought milk comes in non-biodegradable plastic containers - a no-no in my household and they cause major pollution problems. When "re-cycled", despite the plastic being re-used, some waste in tiny particles still gets into the sea and water courses and we eat the fish which have absorbed it and it gets into us. Not good.

My doorstep milk comes from local farmers whereas shop milk can have travelled all round the country before it gets to Tescos, Sainsbury's, (name your supermarket), etc. In itself this causes pollution and doesn't do the quality of the milk much good.

OK. Rant over.
I had home delivery when my kids were small. I nursed all my kids and then they went on whole milk. I had delivery until the last one was in about the fourth grade or thereabouts. They always had a glass of milk with their evening meal. And of course in the morning for their dry cereal or cooked. Sometimes it was cocoa in the morning. And at night if there was a season special on TV like Rudolph The Red Nose Reindeer or The Wizard Of Oz, then they got to stay up late and would have cocoa and popcorn. Stayed up late and had a full tummy. No problems at bedtime on those nights. The youngest always fell asleep before the end on the movie.

As my kids got older, I don't know where they heard about it, but a couple of them would always ask for chocolate milk on their cereal. I didn't care how they had it, as long as they were getting their Vitamin D.
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Old 07-28-2017, 08:40 AM   #72
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Never drink milk with a meal - actually never drink milk on it's own. I have hot chocolate made with milk at bedtime as it helps to stop my reflux waking me up in the night. (I don't really like chocolate but the drink does the trick) and only have a tiny splash in my tea.

I have milk on cereal

Not when I go shopping - we still have doorstep delivery in the UK

I live alone and have 3 pints a week unless I need more for baking or cooking. If I do I just leave a note in the empty (glass) milk bottle for the milkman when he comes in the morning. (Eat your hearts out, Yanks )

Shop bought milk comes in non-biodegradable plastic containers - a no-no in my household and they cause major pollution problems. When "re-cycled", despite the plastic being re-used, some waste in tiny particles still gets into the sea and water courses and we eat the fish which have absorbed it and it gets into us. Not good.

My doorstep milk comes from local farmers whereas shop milk can have travelled all round the country before it gets to Tescos, Sainsbury's, (name your supermarket), etc. In itself this causes pollution and doesn't do the quality of the milk much good.

OK. Rant over.

Ahhh...I remember the milkman...fresh milk and eggs and sometimes orange juice left in the little metal boxes with the Styrofoam interior on the front stoop. My grandmother would spoon out the cream on the top for her coffee.
I miss those days sometimes...
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Old 07-28-2017, 09:30 AM   #73
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You can buy raw milk in Florida, BUT it must be labeled for animal consumption only. It's not cheap either, though it's been so long I don't remember the exact $, but a good bit more than grocery store milk. We've bought it for making cheese, though they sell cheese too. The place where we get it from has fresh duck eggs, quail eggs, even ostrich eggs on occasion, besides having chicken eggs, plus pesticide free produce. They have honey too, but Craig has a place on his travels that primarily makes beeswax candles, but sells honey as a byproduct where he can get a quart jug for around $25. It used to be a lot cheaper than that, but I guess they realized what a deal they were offering people and raised their prices.

I remember the milk man too. We got milk deliveries up until I was 12 or 13 and pretty much stopped drinking as much milk
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Old 07-28-2017, 10:57 AM   #74
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Mad Cook: did you know that good cocoa powder relaxes the cardia sphincter ( my Swedish to English medical book is old) and can cause more re-flux. Milk how ever calms acid re-flux in many patient.

I dont become miraculous healthy with raw milk, I vomit and become very very ill. I grew up on the country side, I have has udder warm milk. So boil it and I used to be fine as kid and I can even handle a little milk direct ( pasteurized ) from the farm now as adult.
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Old 07-29-2017, 12:53 AM   #75
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Ahhh...I remember the milkman...fresh milk and eggs and sometimes orange juice left in the little metal boxes with the Styrofoam interior on the front stoop. My grandmother would spoon out the cream on the top for her coffee.
I miss those days sometimes...
Oh yeah, I remember the insulated metal milk-box on our front porch as a kid. Wow, I guess I am old.

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Old 07-29-2017, 06:40 AM   #76
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Picked up 7 gallons last night. $1.89.
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Old 07-29-2017, 08:01 AM   #77
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Picked up 7 gallons last night. $1.89.
Gee, I hope it lasts you longer than one day. I don't think I buy more than 12 gallons in a year.
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Old 07-29-2017, 08:27 AM   #78
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I pay 6.5 dollar for 1 gallon milk, I find this fair to the farmers, the milk I buy is from the farmer. This is fair, since they have to feed, keep cows healthy and make sure they follow the Swedish strict husbandry laws. Our farmers cant feed antibiotic to the animals just in case they get sick, no that is reserved for sick animals only, nor can the cow be milked during this time. Nor hormones either for the cows. I find this fair, because paying what it worth to keep farmers working the land in a save and future proof way, is important to me . I am only borrowing the earth from my grandchildren. *step of the soap box*
Yes I am poor, but I rather drink less good quality milk, there is always water if I am thirsty.
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Old 07-30-2017, 02:37 PM   #79
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A math dry milk question

I have envelopes of powdered milk. I use it in cooking. Each packet makes on quart. One envelop + 3 3/4 cups of water makes one quart. Each pouch of dry powder = 90.7 g.

A lot of recipes I make call for one cup. What I have been doing is making 3.4 cup of water and adding enough milk powder until it reaches one cup.

On the side of the box it says "serving size 1/4 pouch (23g) dry milk (makes one cup prepared) Serving per container 40

All I want to do is be able to make just one cup. I have no idea what equals a g. As far as I know g's have to do with astronauts. G force. And you all know how great my math skills are. I know cups, teaspoons, tablespoons, etc. It tells me right on the cup or measuring spoon.

Help!!! How much powder do I use to make one cup of milk? How much water?
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Old 07-30-2017, 02:47 PM   #80
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I have envelopes of powdered milk. I use it in cooking. Each packet makes on quart. One envelop + 3 3/4 cups of water makes one quart. Each pouch of dry powder = 90.7 g.

A lot of recipes I make call for one cup. What I have been doing is making 3.4 cup of water and adding enough milk powder until it reaches one cup.

On the side of the box it says "serving size 1/4 pouch (23g) dry milk (makes one cup prepared) Serving per container 40

All I want to do is be able to make just one cup. I have no idea what equals a g. As far as I know g's have to do with astronauts. G force. And you all know how great my math skills are. I know cups, teaspoons, tablespoons, etc. It tells me right on the cup or measuring spoon.

Help!!! How much powder do I use to make one cup of milk? How much water?
Most brands say take 1/3 cup of powder and add enough water to make one cup. That being said, powdered milk is pretty forgiving if you use a bit more or less.
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