Sir_Loin_of_Beef
Chef Extraordinaire
The city of Port Hueneme limits backyard chickens to two, and no roosters. I go through an 18 egg carton about once a week. Who the hell am I going to scare with two crummy chickens?
What organic foods do you buy?
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GotGarlic
Chef Extraordinaire
I think the limit in my city is six and no roosters. I believe the limit is to prevent the noise and odor from becoming a nuisance to neighbors.
RPCookin
Executive Chef
A couple of comments. The organic foods industry would have us railing against the evils of commercial farming and livestock raising, yet if we were limited to traditional methods for agriculture, we would all starve. The world's farmers couldn't raise enough food to feed everyone by time honored methods. I still feel that some changes might be possible in the treatment of livestock, whether raised for meat, or for dairy and eggs, but the more you go that direction, the lower the yield, and that translates directly into higher cost.
My father-in-law is a dry land wheat and corn grower. He was the first in this area to use anhydrous ammonia fertilizer to make a crop on poor land where previously only sparse grass would grow. Now he rents his land to other farmers (at 93 he's earned that right), and instead of "chemical" fertilizers, they use a compost made mostly from the "byproduct" of beef cattle feed lots (yes, that's exactly what you think it is). This is usually brought in by the truckload and dumped at the edge of the field where it will be used. This product is so toxic that it burns the ground bare where the pile is dumped. But it would certainly qualify as an "organic" fertilizer.
Also, the subject of pest control. It would be awesome if crops could be raised without spraying or other such applications, but it's an unrealistic expectation. The plants that our food crops were derived from did not grow in fields measured in hundreds of acres. They grew in small localized patches, or as individual plants scattered around the countryside. As such, when a parasite did invade, it only had a limited supply of product to feed on, and when that was gone, the parasite died or went dormant. Now it's like a smorgasbord, and miles and miles of cropland can be devastated by a single infestation. Pesticides of one sort or another are an absolute necessity if the world's population is to have enough food to stave off starvation.
It's all very well for us to sit here on our computers in our nice homes and debate the merits of "organic" versus "artificial" methods, but not everyone has that luxury. For many our inorganic foods would be the height of decadence.
I can't even comprehend the reaction of a Sudanese mother being taken into a US supermarket and told to pick whatever she wants for her family. The lowest beat up and bruised veggies rejected by us as unusable would be an incredible feast for them. Organic? What's that? Who cares? Just feed my babies.
And yet, Birkies don't fit me well at all... but I love my Ecco sandals!
My father-in-law is a dry land wheat and corn grower. He was the first in this area to use anhydrous ammonia fertilizer to make a crop on poor land where previously only sparse grass would grow. Now he rents his land to other farmers (at 93 he's earned that right), and instead of "chemical" fertilizers, they use a compost made mostly from the "byproduct" of beef cattle feed lots (yes, that's exactly what you think it is). This is usually brought in by the truckload and dumped at the edge of the field where it will be used. This product is so toxic that it burns the ground bare where the pile is dumped. But it would certainly qualify as an "organic" fertilizer.
Also, the subject of pest control. It would be awesome if crops could be raised without spraying or other such applications, but it's an unrealistic expectation. The plants that our food crops were derived from did not grow in fields measured in hundreds of acres. They grew in small localized patches, or as individual plants scattered around the countryside. As such, when a parasite did invade, it only had a limited supply of product to feed on, and when that was gone, the parasite died or went dormant. Now it's like a smorgasbord, and miles and miles of cropland can be devastated by a single infestation. Pesticides of one sort or another are an absolute necessity if the world's population is to have enough food to stave off starvation.
It's all very well for us to sit here on our computers in our nice homes and debate the merits of "organic" versus "artificial" methods, but not everyone has that luxury. For many our inorganic foods would be the height of decadence.
I can't even comprehend the reaction of a Sudanese mother being taken into a US supermarket and told to pick whatever she wants for her family. The lowest beat up and bruised veggies rejected by us as unusable would be an incredible feast for them. Organic? What's that? Who cares? Just feed my babies.
Hi Casey.
(By the way - living here in the desert, I love Birkenstocks and yes, my feet do, too.
And yet, Birkies don't fit me well at all... but I love my Ecco sandals!
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sparrowgrass
Head Chef
I make it a point NOT to buy organic. Organic farmers, especially large scale organic, DO use pesticides. The pesticides are 'natural', not synthetic, but that does not mean they are safer. Copper sulfate is natural, but not safe. USDA has a whole list of 'organic' pesticides and herbicides, and many of them are not only more toxic than the new synthetics, but they must be used more often and in larger quantities. (Which means more trips thru the fields with large equipment, more fuel use, and soil damage from the weight of the machinery.) Science is a wonderful thing, and we have learned a lot in the field of agriculture, and good pest control is one of those things.
The organic label is purely a marketing tool. I think it started out with good intentions--pre EPA and concern about the environment, there was a lot of misuse of pesticides. We have gotten smarter, pesticide residues are measured in fractions of parts per BILLION.
In my garden at home, I use mostly chicken poop and try to rotate planting and timing to keep from building up pests. If I get an outbreak, I use short lived pesticides and spot spray, if squishing doesn't work well enough. I mulch instead of using herbicides.
''Free range' and 'cage free' on chicken/eggs are also a marketing terms. Free range means the chickens have access to the out of doors--there is an open door somewhere in their house. Modern meat chickens are slaughtered when they are 8 weeks old--some don't even have all their feathers yet. They are raised indoors until they are 4 weeks old at least--they will die if they get too cold, so winter birds never go outside. And the outside is generally a cement 'patio', so why would they leave their feeders to go outside?
Cage free chickens are raised in large numbers indoors. Is it safer or more comfortable for chickens? Not necessarily. There is a lot more pecking and cannibalism in cage free chickens. Pasture raised chickens are susceptible to predators and bad weather.
Lordy, I could go on for days--don't get me started on GMOs! Our food supply is generally very safe, with a few exceptions that are caught quickly. Relax. Buy what looks fresh. Grow your own if you can.
The organic label is purely a marketing tool. I think it started out with good intentions--pre EPA and concern about the environment, there was a lot of misuse of pesticides. We have gotten smarter, pesticide residues are measured in fractions of parts per BILLION.
In my garden at home, I use mostly chicken poop and try to rotate planting and timing to keep from building up pests. If I get an outbreak, I use short lived pesticides and spot spray, if squishing doesn't work well enough. I mulch instead of using herbicides.
''Free range' and 'cage free' on chicken/eggs are also a marketing terms. Free range means the chickens have access to the out of doors--there is an open door somewhere in their house. Modern meat chickens are slaughtered when they are 8 weeks old--some don't even have all their feathers yet. They are raised indoors until they are 4 weeks old at least--they will die if they get too cold, so winter birds never go outside. And the outside is generally a cement 'patio', so why would they leave their feeders to go outside?
Cage free chickens are raised in large numbers indoors. Is it safer or more comfortable for chickens? Not necessarily. There is a lot more pecking and cannibalism in cage free chickens. Pasture raised chickens are susceptible to predators and bad weather.
Lordy, I could go on for days--don't get me started on GMOs! Our food supply is generally very safe, with a few exceptions that are caught quickly. Relax. Buy what looks fresh. Grow your own if you can.
bethzaring
Master Chef
And now for a completely different opinion..
Organic farming could feed the world.
Can Organic Farming Feed Us All? | Worldwatch Institute
Organic farming could feed the world.
Can Organic Farming Feed Us All? | Worldwatch Institute
RPCookin
Executive Chef
20% less productive means at least 20% less return, leading to higher prices, and that doesn't count the methods used, which can of themselves be more expensive. For all of the farmers I've known, farming deliberately for a 20% reduction in crop size would put them out of business. Crop prices rarely reflect what costs go into producing them. The farmer doesn't get to set his price like many manufacturers do. He gets paid what the market offers him, and he really doesn't have any leverage. Holding out for a higher price is usually a wasted effort because monthly storage costs eat away any price gains he sees by waiting, and that only applies to crops which can be held back without risk of spoilage.
I remember reading about a rice farmer in California. She was very happy with her 85% of conventional farming yield on her organic rice. She didn't have to pay for pesticides and she got paid enough more for certified organic that she came out ahead.
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Very interesting read. I shouldn't have been so surprised that organic farming can actually out produce conventional agriculture in developing nations.
GotGarlic
Chef Extraordinaire
That's one source that says so and they have an obvious bias. Important to keep in mind.
It occurred to me that almost all the sausages we buy are organic. That is partly because the ingredient list isn't full of weird stuff. Even more than concerning myself with organic, I care about the ingredients in my food. Some organic foods do have ingredients that I don't want, but sometimes it's the only stuff that has an acceptable, to me, list.
rodentraiser
Head Chef
I don't buy organic, but I might if I could afford it. I have tasted both organic and regular strawberries, though, and I have to say, I sure didn't notice a difference. To me, the only way vegetables that ever tasted good were the ones I grew and picked from my garden when I had one. I even grew watermelon one year and it was so delicious - unlike anything you can buy in a grocery store. That's one reason I so seldom eat any vegetables that are for sale in the store. I always say if I wanted to eat cardboard, I'd go chew on a box.
I do agree that plants seem to do well on their own when it comes to pests. I had roses that were covered with aphids one year. I was going to douse them with a soap mixture, but I was lazy so I kept putting it off. Then one day I noticed I had hundreds of lady bugs all over the roses and in a couple days, no aphids at all. The rest of my garden and plants were never sprayed in the 4 years I had a garden and I never had a problem. Not even with the corn. The only pests I couldn't get rid of were the ground squirrels that dug up and ate my beans as soon as I planted them and the birds that ate my lettuce. But they were all so cute I didn't care.
I do agree that plants seem to do well on their own when it comes to pests. I had roses that were covered with aphids one year. I was going to douse them with a soap mixture, but I was lazy so I kept putting it off. Then one day I noticed I had hundreds of lady bugs all over the roses and in a couple days, no aphids at all. The rest of my garden and plants were never sprayed in the 4 years I had a garden and I never had a problem. Not even with the corn. The only pests I couldn't get rid of were the ground squirrels that dug up and ate my beans as soon as I planted them and the birds that ate my lettuce. But they were all so cute I didn't care.
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GotGarlic
Chef Extraordinaire
I think I've mentioned before that frozen vegetables are often better-tasting than fresh, because they're frozen at the peak of flavor right in the fields. If there's a farmers market near you, you can get delicious fresh vegetables there that were picked in the last couple of days, typically.
As RP mentioned, there's a vast difference between growing a home garden and growing many acres of crops intended to feed large numbers of people. Not everyone has the time, space or money to invest in maintaining a garden.
I've had slugs destroy my lettuces and squash bugs decimate my zucchini and summer squash. Nature doesn't always take care of it.
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Addie
Chef Extraordinaire
With so much controversy in this thread alone, I just stick to the foods and brands that I have developed a liking for over the years, I just ignore the whole subject.
I have found that if I collect cigarette ashes and mix them in the soil, I never got the black fungus. found on the leaves of rose bushes. Tobacco is a plant, the same as roses. Does that make it organic roses? Yet there is enough nicotine in just one cigarette to poison a two year old child. So does that make it a poisonous fertilizer? So much discussion over what is natural and what isn't. Not a subject I ever cared to get involved with.
I have found that if I collect cigarette ashes and mix them in the soil, I never got the black fungus. found on the leaves of rose bushes. Tobacco is a plant, the same as roses. Does that make it organic roses? Yet there is enough nicotine in just one cigarette to poison a two year old child. So does that make it a poisonous fertilizer? So much discussion over what is natural and what isn't. Not a subject I ever cared to get involved with.
Addie, when I first started this thread, I had no idea it would go off the rails the way it did. I just mentioned that there were a few organic food items that I bought, and why I bought them. Then I asked if anyone else had organic food items that they liked.
It seemed pretty innocuous to me. Boy, was I wrong.
CD
BTW, I bought a baguette today, and pulled a stick of butter out of the fridge to spread on it. It is Kroger's Simple Truth Organic butter. I actually think I bought it because it was on sale for a great price, not because it is organic. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have paid extra for it. I had to chuckle a little thinking about this thread an my organic butter.
CD
CD
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Casey... I have never bought anything "organic"... at least not on purpose. Might have done so accidentally. I have never seen anything 'organic' on sale. That being said... I have never looked either.
so now, having tried organic butter... is the butter better? or bitter, or ... oh oh - didn't think this one through - ran out of rhymes...
so now, having tried organic butter... is the butter better? or bitter, or ... oh oh - didn't think this one through - ran out of rhymes...
Casey... I have never bought anything "organic"... at least not on purpose. Might have done so accidentally. I have never seen anything 'organic' on sale. That being said... I have never looked either.
so now, having tried organic butter... is the butter better? or bitter, or ... oh oh - didn't think this one through - ran out of rhymes...
I've not done a side-by-side comparison, but I can't say I can taste a difference.
Kroger actually does put their own Simple Truth brand on sale. I'm pretty sure that is why I bought that butter.
CD
buckytom
Chef Extraordinaire
That sale was all in your mind, casey. It was actually not a sale.
They artificially raised the price beforehand, then put it on "sale" back to the price you bought it.
They artificially raised the price beforehand, then put it on "sale" back to the price you bought it.
I buy a lot of organic produce. I don't buy organic meat at all. Products like honey, nut-butters, and fruit spreads I also try to get organic.
Dawgluver
Chef Extraordinaire
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Have some of this. Free to a good owner.
