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Old 07-26-2007, 03:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle Tom
But this whole post is about the demographics of obesity! How can you say people who are fat just lack willpower and make bad choices on purpose when the statistics are so lop sided towards particular groups?
I never said that demographics and environment DOESN'T play a part; I acknowledged that it does. But beyond that it's still up to the individual. If an individual wants to lose weight, they can do it. However, to blame it on their environment is still just an excuse.
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:38 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ironchef
Yes, demographics may make a person more exposed to a certain thing, but it doesn't make them metanlly incapable of making their own decisions.
I don't believe I ever said it made them incapable of making their own decisions. What I was getting at is that it affects what decisions are available to them.

[edited to add] If environment made people incapable of making their own decisions, the stats would be 100% for all people in the same environment (which obviously isn't the case) [\edit]
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:43 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle Tom
At least someone can avoid buying crack

It takes about 20 minutes for your brain to catch up with your stomach. By the time you feel the "I'm full" sensation, you've been full for a while. If obese people wait until they feel full, they won't lose weight because their body will want to maintain its current weight.
And most people can avoid over-eating.

You're right about the brain and stomach relationship. That is the physiology of it, but it only takes 1 or 2 times of pigging out to know your limit. Eat two hamburgers and you’re miserable, so next time you know it was too much.

But let’s be honest, obesity doesn’t happen overnight. It’s not an instant, one shot deal, where one meal makes or breaks you. On the contrary, it is a prolonged and sustained pattern of overeating. Also, you (a person in general) knows when you’re over-weight, and you also know what caused it (unless you have a medical disorder). And when you know these things, you also know there is something you can do about it.
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Chipotle Tom
I don't believe I ever said it made them incapable of making their own decisions. What I was getting at is that it affects what decisions are available to them.
And I already said that I agreed with you regarding this. Why are you going around in a circle?

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[edited to add] If environment made people incapable of making their own decisions, the stats would be 100% for all people in the same environment (which obviously isn't the case) [\edit]
No one said that it did, what's your point?
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:49 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by keltin
That is the physiology of it, but it only takes 1 or 2 times of pigging out to know your limit. Eat two hamburgers and you’re miserable, so next time you know it was too much.
But once your stomach is stretched from those first few times, it holds a lot more and may not give you that over-stuffed sensation until the third hamburger. At that point, two hamburgers might feel just fine.

I'm not trying to say that there isn't any sort of individual responsibility when it comes to over-eating. However, it's much easier to write it off to individual responsibility and not explore any of the factors which might increase somebody's risk for that behavior.

If we understand a problem's components, we can do a lot more to fix it. From what I can tell, just saying "eat less" to the people with the problem hasn't been working.
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:50 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Chipotle Tom
It's also convenient to say that a person's environment shouldn't matter when it comes to losing weight, but when those with little education are surrounded by bad choices, how can they really be expected to make any good ones, much less know which choices are good or bad?

I agree that those who have enough education and money to make responsible choices are completely responsible for whatever predicament they're in health-wise. However, people who don't have much time, money, or education are in a much more difficult spot. Trying to ignore the environment that has facilitated their poor health is like saying poor people are only poor because they want to be.

Your logic would suggest only poor uneducated people are fat. Not true. I'm betting even poor uneducated people know you get fat from overeating.
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:55 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ironchef
And I already said that I agreed with you regarding this. Why are you going around in a circle?


I typed my reply before I read your edited post.

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No one said that it did, what's your point?
My point is that you can say it comes down to individual responsibility all you want, but the statistics suggest that people in those demographic groups are required to have more willpower and desire to seek out healthy choices because they have fewer available to them.
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle Tom
...What I was getting at is that it affects what decisions are available to them...
I don't believe that. How is a decision to not overeat NOT available to someone based on their income or residence?
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:56 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Andy M.
Your logic would suggest only poor uneducated people are fat. Not true. I'm betting even poor uneducated people know you get fat from overeating.
Not at all. My logic suggests that poor uneducated people are more likely to be fat.
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:58 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Andy M.
Your logic would suggest only poor uneducated people are fat. Not true. I'm betting even poor uneducated people know you get fat from overeating.
It would also suggest that poor and uneducated people have no responsibility or choice to the matter.
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:58 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Andy M.
I don't believe that. How is a decision to not overeat NOT available to someone based on their income or residence?
It depends on whether or not they know what constitutes overeating. For example, what about children who are encouraged to eat more than what they ought to by their parents? How about when adults' metabolism slows down, are they supposed to know exactly how much to cut down on their eating without help?
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Old 07-26-2007, 04:01 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironchef
It would also suggest that poor and uneducated people have no responsibility or choice to the matter.
I have never stated that. However, you have somehow latched onto the idea that I have been touting this throught the whole thread. All I have been doing is suggesting why some groups are more affected by obesity than others.
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Old 07-26-2007, 04:03 PM   #33
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Overfeeding children is another topic. The free choices of adults often don;t apply to children. They have to do as they are told.

Whether your metabolism slows down or not, the thought process is not complex.

"I used to be able to eat this much food and not get fat. Something has changed and not I get fat. I'd better eat less."
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Old 07-26-2007, 04:04 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle Tom
[/font]

I typed my reply before I read your edited post.

[font=Comic Sans MS]

My point is that you can say it comes down to individual responsibility all you want, but the statistics suggest that people in those demographic groups are required to have more willpower and desire to seek out healthy choices because they have fewer available to them.
Other than the stats in the first post (of which there is no citing), show me an offical chart of some sort that supports your claims. Not one done by a newspaper or magazine, but one conducted by the CDC or US or State Health Deparment, or a reputable source. Many "studies" only show what the person(s) conducting the study wants to convey.
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Old 07-26-2007, 04:08 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M.
Overfeeding children is another topic. The free choices of adults often don;t apply to children. They have to do as they are told.
But this also affects how those children eat later in life, so it is relevant. Also, there was a statistic about children in the first post.

Quote:
Whether your metabolism slows down or not, the thought process is not complex.

"I used to be able to eat this much food and not get fat. Something has changed and not I get fat. I'd better eat less."
And there is nothing that keeps people from realizing that. The statistics, however, suggest that it doesn't happen as often in some groups.
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Old 07-26-2007, 04:11 PM   #36
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Here's a statistic for you taken from the following site:

Obesity rising in all income levels, especially among the rich

National Income-Obesity Statistics

Here are the income-obesity statistics for 1971-1974:
  • Less than $25,000: 22.5% obese
  • $25,000-$40,000: 16.1% obese
  • $40,000-$60,000: 14.5% obese
  • More than $60,000: 9.7% obese
Here are the results for 2001-2002:
  • Less than $25,000: 32.5% obese
  • $25,000-$40,000: 31.3% obese
  • $40,000-$60,000: 30.3% obese
  • More than $60,000: 26.8% obese
Here's how much obesity increased in each category:
  • Less than $25,000: increase of 144%
  • $25,000-$40,000: increase of 194%
  • $40,000-$60,000: increase of 209%
  • More than $60,000: increase of 276%
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Old 07-26-2007, 04:11 PM   #37
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Those are some pretty sobering statistics black chef. Where did you find this info? I always like to know the source of this kind of stuff. Thanks!
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Old 07-26-2007, 04:13 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle Tom
It depends on whether or not they know what constitutes overeating. For example, what about children who are encouraged to eat more than what they ought to by their parents? How about when adults' metabolism slows down, are they supposed to know exactly how much to cut down on their eating without help?
As I said before, becoming obese doesn’t happen instantly overnight. It’s not like popping a balloon, but is instead like filling a balloon. It takes “work” to do so. It takes sustained and prolonged overeating to become obese. No matter your level of income or education, you know when you are “putting on a few pounds”. A few pounds is one thing, but from there you have to put on many more to be “fat”, and even more to be considered obese.

Even if your metabolism slows down, you still recognize when your “putting on some weight”. And when you notice this (and it doesn’t happen over night) you have the choice of letting it go unchecked, or you can do something about it. Again, I don’t think there are many people out there that don’t understand the relationship between how much you eat and how much you weigh.

One of the biggest problems is eating habits. Most people, even the ones that aren’t obese, eat too quickly. If everyone slowed down in the eating, they’d taste more, enjoy the food more, and eat less. Also, as it’s been said, you should never eat for time or tongue......always eat for the tummy. If you only eat when you are truly hungry, and then eat slowly, you can better control your weight. But a lot of people have gotten into the habit of eating because “it’s time”.

Think about this........If an overweight person would eat only with chop-sticks for a month, they would lose weight. Why? Because you eat slower with chopsticks. It takes co-ordination to use chop-sticks, and even if you’re good with them, you can’t shovel mountains of food into your mouth with each bite like you can with a spoon or fork. Thus, each bite is smaller, you eat slower, and realize you’re full sooner meaning you eat less.
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Old 07-26-2007, 04:14 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironchef
Other than the stats in the first post (of which there is not citing), show me an offical chart of some sort that supports your claims. Not one done by a newspaper or magazine, but one conducted by the CDC or US or State Health Deparments. Many "studies" only show what the person(s) conducting the study wants to convey.
I did a research project as an undergraduate geography student studying the spatial distribution of supermarkets in Austin, Texas. This is a pretty good web site too:

www.fooddeserts.org

The web site is for the UK, but it contains several studies. I'll do some research and come back to post links. You're right though, the OP should have given a link.
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Old 07-26-2007, 04:15 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M.
Overfeeding children is another topic. The free choices of adults often don;t apply to children. They have to do as they are told.

Whether your metabolism slows down or not, the thought process is not complex.

"I used to be able to eat this much food and not get fat. Something has changed and not I get fat. I'd better eat less."
Well said! Why did it take me so many words to say basically the same thing??? Dang, I've got an over-wording problem!
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